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[CRGreathouse]

I think that you should do whatever changes you intend to make upfront. The real question is how far those changes should go. I've heard some things about the new mechanical subsystems, and I'm not sure how well they'll go over---partly through lack of understanding. How extensively do these subsystems change the rules?

If you (understandably) don't want to get into specifics, can you provide a comparison?
* The FRCS changes very few existing rules, but provides new mechanics like spellfire
* Oriental Adventures makes many changes to existing rules, but most are easy to adjust to (like replacing standard armors with oriental armors); some larger changes, like wu-jen spellcasting and Iajitsu Focus, are made
* The Book of Iron Might changes a large section of combat by adding a wholy new system, making some manuvers obsolete; in addition, it adds standard system features (feats, a new race,s etc.)
* Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed changes the system drastically, replacing the core magic system with a different one, replacing all core classes, and redoing the feats and skills
* d20 Past uses the same core mechanics (feats, skills, classes), but doesn't resemble D&D nearly as closely as MCAE (from what we know of it)

 

[JVisgaitis]

Wow, lot of great responses. First off, I guess I should say that all of the changes that we are proposing don't add up to anything that isn't d20 or don't distill the system so much that its unrecognizable. I would contend that the majority of changes could be present in modules (like Unearthed Arcana) which would allow them to be used or ignored as players see fit. I'd like to present a toolkit of rules that could be used for Avadnu themed games as well as any other setting.

I think that you should throw in the major rule changes. I think that Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved is a good model. The original book had some setting material and it had new classes and a new magic system. Later, Arcana Evolved added more to the setting and a few more rules changes.

I would be lying if I said the model we are looking at isn't Arcana Evolved. Its a great book that really gets across the feeling of world, characters, and classes.

Introduce the major changes and come back later and add the minor details and flourishes. Otherwise you may never get this thing out the door.

That's what I'm thinking at this point. There is some stuff we want to add, so we'll see how it goes. Also, Crothian's idea isn't a bad one either. . .

In general I am not looking for a new setting but new bits like classes and feats mixed into a setting still appeals to me.

Exactly the reason why I want to include those rules out of the gate.

As for radical changes: These are OK, but they should not be changes for change's sake. One important thing: The thing that really makes the game world different is the fluff, not the crunch.

Those that don't know much about Avadnu think we did make changes for changes sake. Not so at all. Everything was carefully balanced and created and has a distinct purpose. The setting started out as novels over 10 years ago. I think the fluff is well represented. I'm just concerned that the rules should represent the fluff in the best light possible.

If going PDF first, then I see no reason why not to include the 'crunch' of the game system in fairly generic bits with specific bits as needed to support it.

The major reason is time, but I agree with you. Holy crap, you have more reviews then I have posts. Man, that's crazy!

If you're going PDF and not print (at this time), you might be better off creating a product that is 100% compatible with existing d20.

My fear with this is that it seems to create a precedent. If I purchased a generic setting book and it worked with the existing game and then they introduced a new book that turned everything upside down, I think I would be turned off. If I started a campaign, I'd have to dump everything I worked on. That would suck.

Well, I don't know what to expect in detail from your setting, but if it's not very focussed on a small area, 128 pages seems a bit sparse for a new setting book. Did you give the book to some people who are not involved with your setting and asked them what they thought?

I know it seems small, but trust me its jam packed. As far as what we've been doing for feedback, I have a group of professional freelancers, diehard d20 players, and those not associated with D&D at all whom we constantly bounce our ideas off of. I have some of the most opinionated and difficult people I could find, and they love it. I call them the Litmus Group, and they've been a great bunch to work with and bounce ideas off of. Trust me, the book will be crammed with so much for its size you'll wonder how we got it all to fit in.

The question for crunch is a bit difficult. Does you setting need crunch that exceeds a few prestige classes to make it work or interesting?

Does it need it? No. Will it make for a much better experience? Hell yeah. But I'm going to go by the feelings of the masses and decide from there.

 

[Insight]

Wow, lot of great responses. First off, I guess I should say that all of the changes that we are proposing don't add up to anything that isn't d20 or don't distill the system so much that its unrecognizable. I would contend that the majority of changes could be present in modules (like Unearthed Arcana) which would allow them to be used or ignored as players see fit. I'd like to present a toolkit of rules that could be used for Avadnu themed games as well as any other setting.

<snip>
...
My fear with this is that it seems to create a precedent. If I purchased a generic setting book and it worked with the existing game and then they introduced a new book that turned everything upside down, I think I would be turned off. If I started a campaign, I'd have to dump everything I worked on. That would suck.

I am suggesting that you offer both at the same time. This way, you answer two different customer bases - those who like your setting but aren't interested in rule changes, and those who want to use your rule changes. If you presented the 'generic' campaign setting as the 'd20' or 'OGL' version, you could present the 'rule changes' book as the 'Native Avadnu Ruleset' or something to that effect. While the first would be mostly fluff, the second would be specific rules that pertain to the setting. By separating the two products (and having them available at the same time), you are giving your potential customers a choice rather than making the proposed rule changes seem inherent to the setting and turning potential d20 stalwarts away.

 

[Ghostwind]

So what I need feedback on is the approach of the crunch portion of the book. To survive as a campaign setting, we initially planned on making it somewhat generic to fit easier into an existing d20 System game. What we are thinking of now is because it will be a PDF we can make it longer and take a bit more liberty with the product as we would prefer, but this would take it further away from the core ruleset and possibly alienate some people from the product. What I want to know is what would you rather see? A campaign setting developed which introduced more rules sub-systems, base classes, and other tidbits or should we keep it as close to core as possible and leave all of the cool bits for a later product? Personally, I'd rather do all the cool bits upfront, because if we don't we kinda set a precedent as a generic setting book using the core rules.

Personally, the strategy I would go with would be to offer the setting as completely generic as I could in a single pdf. Then I would go with a second pdf that is low priced and contains the specialized tidbits that use non-standard game rules and mechanics that make the setting unique. When you do send the book to the printer, combine the two with the unique stuff being in the last chapter or an appendix.

And to encourgage people to give me their opinions, I'll throw in a free PDF of either Legends of Avadnu or Digital Denizens: Challenge Rating One. Your choice.

Awesome!!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Those that don't know much about Avadnu think we did make changes for changes sake. Not so at all.

I don't want to imply that you changed thinks just for change's sake. I don't know much (read: anything) about Avadnu and so cannot tell whether you did it or not. I just wanted to warn you.

Everything was carefully balanced

Being balanced isn't the same as being unecessary.

and created and has a distinct purpose. The setting started out as novels over 10 years ago. I think the fluff is well represented.

Then there should be no problems with rules changes, as they're not just there to be different, but to portray Avadnu properly

I'm just concerned that the rules should represent the fluff in the best light possible.

As they should. If it means that some rules have to be changed, go for it.

 

[Edheldur]

Both as a player and DM I would prefer to have the rules changes/additions upfront to support and introduce the new setting. As some other people have I also said: what's the point of having a new campaign setting that mechanically offers nothing new?

However I would also note that you should also state how much the new rules material deviates from the norm (ie: Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed and Arcana Evolved have made pretty radical changes to the core rules as it says), just so the people interested in your product can make up their mind about the use they will be giving it.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Both as a player and DM I would prefer to have the rules changes/additions upfront to support and introduce the new setting. As some other people have I also said: what's the point of having a new campaign setting that mechanically offers nothing new?

Rich, detailed game world? Cool cultures? Well thought out history with lots of hooks to use it in the present game? Well thought-out cosmology and pantheon?

 

[Turjan]

Those that don't know much about Avadnu think we did make changes for changes sake. Not so at all. Everything was carefully balanced and created and has a distinct purpose.

Well, if this is the case, then go ahead with your crunch . This answer implies for me that the changes you made in the crunch department are necessary to make the feel of your world tangible; then it doesn't make sense to omit these changes from your first release. Of course, it's not necessary to come up with the whole package; even AU/AE has its supplements.

I know it seems small, but trust me its jam packed. As far as what we've been doing for feedback, I have a group of professional freelancers, diehard d20 players, and those not associated with D&D at all whom we constantly bounce our ideas off of. I have some of the most opinionated and difficult people I could find, and they love it. I call them the Litmus Group, and they've been a great bunch to work with and bounce ideas off of. Trust me, the book will be crammed with so much for its size you'll wonder how we got it all to fit in.

You know, I was only a little bit concerned that there will be no space left after you have put pages after pages of your gorgeous illustrations - which we don't want to do without - into those 128 pages . But let's see what you come up with .

 

[mcbmagic]

I would think that you should add the crunch that makes Avandu different. You need to show the worlds flavor so as to entice people into playing in the campaign setting.

If the world book is just generic fewer people will be interested. However, the crunch that is included should be related to the flavor.



Just my thought.

 

[shaylon]

We're finally putting the screws to the Avadnu Primer, and we have a little bit of an internal debate on how to approach some areas of the product. Initially, when we were going to print with it, it was going to be a 128 page full color hardcover. Currently with the state of the industry and our financial situation, we're taking the "better safe then sorry approach." If it sells well, it will see print, so no problems there.

So what I need feedback on is the approach of the crunch portion of the book. To survive as a campaign setting, we initially planned on making it somewhat generic to fit easier into an existing d20 System game. What we are thinking of now is because it will be a PDF we can make it longer and take a bit more liberty with the product as we would prefer, but this would take it further away from the core ruleset and possibly alienate some people from the product.

What I want to know is what would you rather see? A campaign setting developed which introduced more rules sub-systems, base classes, and other tidbits or should we keep it as close to core as possible and leave all of the cool bits for a later product? Personally, I'd rather do all the cool bits upfront, because if we don't we kinda set a precedent as a generic setting book using the core rules.

And to encourgage people to give me their opinions, I'll throw in a free PDF of either Legends of Avadnu or Digital Denizens: Challenge Rating One. Your choice.

Thanks!!

I would keep the crunchy core setting specific stuff in the first pdf. If the ruleset sells well as a pdf, then you can bring the other stuff around. Making a good ruleset will encourage people to buy later pdfs. In general, if I am interested in a setting or campaign, I buy as much as I can for that setting that interests me. If there are parts of a setting I don't like I tend to stay away from those, but everything else I can afford gets purchased.

I look forward to hearing more about your setting, and I hope this helps.

-Shay