Help with Big Fight!

[Neumannium]

Hi all,

I'm currently running a homebrew campaign and we're nearing one of the climactic battles of the current scenario. We should be there in a week or two...

Problem is, I'm not sure how hard to make this fight.

Here's the setup: It will be a gladatorial type combat, so the PCs know they're getting into a fight, and each side will have 5 rounds for buffing and potion drinking. They won't know WHAT/WHO they're fighting until the fight starts, however.

I'm letting them use all their equipment.

So, they'll be all buffed up and ready to go when the fight starts - as will their opponents.

All 4 characters are 14th level. There's a paladin, a fighter, a rogue, and a sorceror.

I'd like their opponents to have some or all of their levels as character levels. (example: human fighter, ogre barbarian, mind flayer sorceror)

Now, the books state that one opponent (lets say a 14th level human fighter) has a CR of 14. This doesn't seem right to me. 4 14th level characters would be challenged by 1 14th level enemy?

I'd like to make a group of 3 or 4 opponents that will give these 4 characters a REAL good run for their money, but I also don't want to make the fight impossible, which is what I'm afraid of if I roll up 4 characters to oppose them.

So (finally), my question is: How do you handle this? Can I send 4 14th level guys against my PCs without creating a ton of problems? If yes, can I stock them with equipment based on the values in the DM's guide? (for example, a 13th level character should have 110,000gp worth of equipment) If no, then what?

This is a huge fight and I want it to be hard -- perhaps even fatal for the characters, but I want them to have a fair shake, too.

Sorry this is so long. If you need any clarification on any point, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Berandor]

Well, the book says that one level 14 enemy takes up one fourth of the group's ressources. So 4 14th-level opponents would be EL 18, and an EL of group level+4 is considered a tough challenge.

You could also design some "hidden specials" in the arena, like pit traps, one-shot healing spells waiting to go off, etc, and when the players have too easy a time, have the opponents use their knowledge of the fighting ground to get into a more advantageous position.

 

[Pinotage]

4 CR 14 critters is a tough challenge, possibly fatal, but probably not a TPK. If you went with 5 or 6 CR 14 critters, then they'd probably mop the floor with the PCs. In fact, I'd be inclined to go with 6 CR13 critters. Same EL, but more choice and more critters. However, lack of healing is going to kill (no cleric, despite the paladin), so go with 4 or 5 CR 13 critters.

I like the idea of having 'hidden specials', but at this level most characters are going to be flying, so bear that in mind. Perhaps make a 3D cavern-like landscape with tunnels? Basically, make the landscape interesting enough so that it becomes important. Certain areas provide cover, others have Anti-Magic Fields etc. Also when the combatents enter the arena, teleport them in to a random location. No fun having them all start in a bunch and the spellcaster that wins initiative gets that area effect spell off.

For critters, a good balance between the four basic classes - fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard. It'll depend on your campaign what type of creature you want.

Pinotage

 

[Enkhidu]

From the sound of this, you want this to be an even up brawl. Is that the case? If so, you'll want a party of equal strength (i.e. 4 14th level characters, or the equivelent). If you want to give the party some more survivability, I'd suggest going with a 15th level (a magical heavy), two 13th level (possibly beasties with sneak attack or some spell like abilities), and a 12th level (a tank).

If I were looking at doing it, I'd throw a 15th level druid, an awakened dire animal (maybe an ape?) with barbarian or fighter levels that come out to 12th level, a "defense machine" (likely a cleric or fighter in heavy armor using expertise/defensive fighting and buffed with as many AC boosting tricks as possible - basically the tank is there to suck up PC actions, so you'd want to make sure this one is well protected against one spell and out combos), and artillery (the aforementioned mindflayer with wizard or sorcerer levels would work).

 

[Neumannium]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

From the sound of this, you want this to be an even up brawl. Is that the case?

That's pretty much it exactly.

Basically, the PCs are in the service of a Lord, and acting as his champions. They're going up against their Lord's arch-rival's champions in a tourney melee.

Therefore, I want them to be basically equally matched.

I was thinking of outlawing flight, any plane shifting, teleportation, and the like -- basically they're putting on a show for a crowd, so they should have to stay relatively in an area where the spectators can see them. For that same reason, I was thinking of eliminating invisibility -- but that might really badly affect the rogue.

If I were looking at doing it, I'd throw a 15th level druid, an awakened dire animal (maybe an ape?) with barbarian or fighter levels that come out to 12th level, a "defense machine" (likely a cleric or fighter in heavy armor using expertise/defensive fighting and buffed with as many AC boosting tricks as possible - basically the tank is there to suck up PC actions, so you'd want to make sure this one is well protected against one spell and out combos), and artillery (the aforementioned mindflayer with wizard or sorcerer levels would work).

I like the sound of this -- although the dire ape is a little exotic for my taste...however they would have no clue what to expect from him...a dire ape monk, maybe?

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Shallown]

Don't forget one caster who does nothing but Dispel magics to strip away those Buffs. At this level it becomes a serious concern. It doesn't have to be anyone high level just someone with a wand.

I would go with several lower level opponents. If given a chance to combine fire on a target a high level party can chew one or two opponents up.

How about a dragon and his half dragon brood. Lots of breath weapons flying around without concern for hurting each other.

Lots of things you can do.

Later

 

[krichaiushii]

Just some random thoughts.

Five rounds to precast spells?

A summoner might wreak some havoc, which could be fun, in and of itself.

Calling up huge air elemental(s), casting Silence on them, and siccing them on opposing spellcasters might be amusing, what with the reach and all. (Idea taken from someone else on another board).

What about a spellcaster who spends the five rounds shaping the battlefield by casting assorted walls (from an item or regular spell)? That might be interesting - especially if coupled with your no flight consideration.

I second the dispelling tactic mentioned by Shallown.

Hmm... A conjurer (divine), an abjurer, and two guys to defend them.

Think twice before outlawing certain tactics - as it hampers your NPCs' abilities, too. Flying battles are sure to be crowd pleasers.

 

[Steel_Wind]

We worked on a design for something like this in a computer module we did and it may be helpful for you to consider some of the design elements we used:

-No time for buffing; simply an entrance doorway which is a safe zone which closes (ejects player) into arena after a given amount of rounds (so they can't stay there the whole fight). This does not mean the player will just stay there and buff - as you will force a choice on the players for doing so (see below).

- Strip all or nearly all weapons and items from the party and the opponents. This allows you to fine tune the combat, balance the power better between the party and the foes and furthermore, makes weapon and item choices within the arena a focus of the combat;

- Place weapons and items in the arena along the wall or on top of obelisks etc. You can make some of the items accessible only by moving from the top of one obelisk to the next in a jump or dimension door - what have you. Think Quake or UT for inspiration and let your design imagination take over;

-Make arena large so that it forces choices on your players. Do they arm first with lesser weapons near their entrance and take time to remove them from whatever field/enclosure contains them - or do they move straight for the centre obelisks to get the bigger weapons? ; and,

-Forcing players to make choices like this could end up with fighter and enemy running full tilt for a big weapon in the centre and grappling over who gets possession of a big weapon, while other chars make lesser choices. Meanwhile the Wizard cedes ground and possible securing of critically powerful items by staying in the safe zone for extra buffing. This requires the spell casters to make difficult choices.

In short, the fight sounds interesting, but the game puzzle and tactical element of what you propose does not sound particularly innovative or distinct. You are approaching it like any other D&D fight. Location and cheering crowds may not be enough to make it a climax. Consider something entirely different: designing your arena and the rules and weapons which govern it like you would if you were designing a balanced computer game. If well done, this will force tactical choices out of the ordinary on to your players and - if done well - will be a very unique and memorable session.

Cue up your Star Trek Amok time theme music and have fun

 

[Someone]

At that level, a straight up battle could be dissapointing in the end: it´s very likely that it´ll be decided in a couple rounds (a lucky save or die spell or critical hit) What crowd would be impressed by 20 seconds of fighting? You need a way to make it longer and make them sweat.

Consider this variant: instead of a fight vs the bad guy´s champions, he challenges the PCs to survive his "Arena of Doom", with varied and chilling entertainments for the crowd! You can plan several encounters that "fire up" in quick succession -battles with hordes of enemies, then traps firing all over, a big and nasty monster (maybe a very big vermin?), and finally the big fun -something like a dragon rider spellcaster-

 

[Terwox]

Quote: There's a paladin, a fighter, a rogue, and a sorceror.

It's a bit cheesy, but you could throw them against a blackguard, a warrior of darkness (if you've got the BoVD, or just another "evil fighter" class,) an assassin, and a sorceror with a specialization in necromancy and immobilization spells.

They could also be trolls or something.