Pathfinder 1E Help with EL

[axp_dave]

I'm DM'ing my first Pathfinder module (Tower of the Last Baron) and the first time I have DM'ed overall in many years. The mod calls for a number of encounters of a high number of 1st level warriors versus the 5th level party. On paper, the encounter level would be EL 7 for 8 x 1st level warrior guards. I'm worried that the guards will not be able to hit the party's AC and would die quickly and not be much of a challenge to the party.

Does anyone have thoughts on this? I'm thinking of eliminating a number of the guard encounters for something with a few CR3 or 4 monsters. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[S'mon]

IME it's possible to design 1st level warriors in Pathfinder that can challenge a 5th level party, but also possible to make them hopeless.
Are they min-maxed, eg infantry at least STR 15, archers at least DEX 15? Good selection of equipment and tactics? Are they correctly stat'd & CR'd? A War-1 normally is w/out elite array stats, but still gets racial bonuses, eh humans should have +2 to their best stat, giving 13+2=15 on mundane array. CR should be 2 less than level, ie CR 1/3 for War-1. Do they have useful feats like Toughness, which makes a big difference to War-1s without max hp on their hit die?

 

[paradox42]

1st-level Warriors should be pushovers for most PCs of 5th level, if they're remotely geared/optimized towards combat. A 5th level Human Fighter with Whirlwind Attack could probably solo all 8 without taking much (if any) damage. A 5th-level Wizard with Fireball could annihilate all 8 with one spell.

I could give more examples, but the point is made I think- suffice it to say, your worries are fully justified for a "typical" 5th-level party. Do the monsters if you prefer that option, it should work much better.

 

[axp_dave]

The mod is a 3.5, so even if I converted the NPC's to Pathfinder from scratch I don't think they would be too different since it is just one NPC level. I appreciate your feedback and will go with using tougher "monster" guards.

Dave

 

[JustinAlexander]

I'm worried that the guards will not be able to hit the party's AC and would die quickly and not be much of a challenge to the party. Does anyone have thoughts on this? I'm thinking of eliminating a number of the guard encounters for something with a few CR3 or 4 monsters. Any advice would be appreciated.

There's a couple of levels on which to address your question.

First, the guards appear to have attack rolls of +2 to +4. According to the Bestiary (pg. 91), your CR 3 monsters are going to have attack rolls of +4 to +6. CR 4 monsters have hits of +6 to +8. So these guards will hit about 10-20% less than the monsters you're proposing to replace them with. In short, the guards shouldn't have any problems hitting the party's AC.

Second, in terms of challenge, you are correct: In general, encounters built with large numbers of lower-CR opponents will be easier than encounters with smaller numbers of high-CR opponents. But you shouldn't think of that as a problem: Variety is good.

Check out Revisiting Encounter Design: If you embrace a wider variety of encounters, you're likely to find the pace of your game dramatically improving.

 

[S'mon]

The mod is a 3.5, so even if I converted the NPC's to Pathfinder from scratch I don't think they would be too different since it is just one NPC level. I appreciate your feedback and will go with using tougher "monster" guards.
Dave

Chances are your 3.5 guards have STR 11 or STR 13 at best, and probably Alertness or something else pretty worseless for feats. To earn their CR you need to stat them appropriately, eg since it's 3.5 they'll be listed CR 1/2. To earn CR 1/2 in Pathfinder you need to use NPC elite array* 15 14 13 12 10 8 plus racial mods. That gives human melee troop War-1s STR 17 and base 10 hp, 11 with CON 13. Give them DEX 12, scale armour (+5 AC > AC 16), either a two-handed weapon (halberd, greatsword) + power attack feat, or a 1-handed weapon & heavy shield for AC 18.
With 2hw the second feat can be weapon focus: +1 to hit, with greatsword now you're looking at ATT +5 dam 2d6+4, power attack ATT +4 dam 2d6+7.
With 1hw either Power Attack, or Toughness (11> 14 hp) if you want to help them survive being fireballed.
Save the 8 for INT or CHA.
Design the archers similarly with DEX 17, feats could be Point Blank Shot & Rapid Shot, or Improved Initiative. Archers should be focusing on wizards & other rear-line PCs. Give them some mundane counters to common magic such as flour bags for invisibility.

*You could go whole-hog and make them Fighter-1, which is still CR 1/2 in Pathfinder. That gives them an extra feat. Personally I might do that, or else make them War-2 with mundane stat array, also CR 1/2.

Disclaimer: I have a bad cold, better check my math.

 

[adembroski]

It really is OK to allow your PCs to just beat the hell out of someone now and then. Reinforce the idea that they're a cut above. This should actually once every 5-8 encounters, honestly.

Additionally, numbers help. Flank and aid another turns a +4 attack bonus into a +8. Have the NPCs close with the party from a dispersed position and close ranks when they're in melee range to cut down on area of effect danger. Close with mages quickly and grapple to effectively disarm them. Give up an attack to make a double move to close within Attack of Opportunity range with magic users. Imagine the NPCs as your adventuring party and lead them, don't just use them as cannon fodder for higher level NPCs.

That said, the goal should be survival once the NPCs realize that they're overmatched. Most of the low-level encounters I run end with a fighting withdrawal of the lesser party.

The prevailing literature on GMing tends to emphasize that your role is not adversarial with your players. This is true to a great extent, but there does come a time when you are indeed role playing the player's adversaries, and thus you should approach encounter design that way. Don't just think about who the party will face, but how the NPCs will handle the situation. In that moment, it's your job to oppose the PCs, to provide the greatest challenge you can with the group you're given.

 

[ggeilman]

Stating those warriors out with some of the suggestions and they are not bad for a CR 1/3. Not bad and you can have a whole mess of them!
warrior CR 1/3
XP 135
Human Warrior 1
LE Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 13 (1d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Halberd +5 (1d10+4/x3)
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Statistics
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Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Halberd)
Skills Acrobatics -3 (-7 jump), Climb +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Perception +2, Ride -3, Sense Motive +2, Stealth -3, Swim -1
Languages Common
Other Gear Scale mail, Halberd

 

[Starfox]

A group of 8 level 1 fighter is an EL 6 encounter in Pathfinder - just barely a challenge for a level 5 party. Not much more than a speed bump. An NPC with class level has a CL equal to Level -1 these days. As adembroski says above, it is OK to let the party just overrun some encounters.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

I reccomend boosting the encounter a bit by adding higher level NPCs. A officer type could be Fighter 3, and the actual warriors be from level 1-3 - some being more experienced. For example, 1 Fi3, 1 War 3, 3 war 2 and 3 war 1. Kinda tricky to calculate total CR, so just add together the XP of 1 CR2 + 1 CR1+ 2 CR1/2+ 2 CR1/3. If that total is less than A CR 7 they it will still be a fairly easy encounter. but the officer will be a challenge for the party fighter and not everyone else goes down on one strike. I would probably go for sword n'board for most of these, added with chainmail for AC 18+dex mod. With Shield Focus and or Dodge you could get AC 21-22, which even a 5th level fighter will miss occasionally.