Help with player Aristocrat

[The_Spider]

Hi, I just recently became a member of En world.

Im looking for help coming up with ideas for an aristocrat pc class based off the one in the dmg. I am Looking for fresh ideas, your thoughts and opinions. Hopefully we can come up with something good that everyone can use. I want to balance the additional feats/abilities with the rest of the classes in the players handbook so that the aristocrat is not overpowered. So be sure to give thought to what level the feats/abilities should be gained. So here is the aristocrat from the dmg. with some ideas at the end for feats/abilites to get things started. I will be referring to the aristocrat as a noble most of the time. My thoughts will be in color.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

6/ each additional level might be good here, 2nd to the rogue. Though 4/ seems good too after all aristocrats tend to get lazy with all that wealth and adventuring stuff . Increased starting to 6, to represent the noble’s early education and skil growth being superior to others.

Class Skills: The aristocrat s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Swim (Str)

I removed survival, spot and disguise

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The aristocrat is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and light armor.

reduced armor to light


The Noble
Saves
Level BAB Fort Reflex Will Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Wealth, Influence +1, Inspire Courage, Nobility Feat
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Nobility Feat
3 +2 +1 +1 +3 Inspire Competence
4 +3 +1 +1 +4 Influence +2, Frighten,
5 +3 +1 +1 +4 Nobility Feat
6 +4 +2 +2 +5 Leadership, Suggestion,
7 +5 +2 +2 +5 Influence +3
8 +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Leader +1, Nobility Feat
9 +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Inspire Greatness
10 +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Influence +4,
11 +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 Nobility Feat
12 +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Leader +2,
13 +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Influence +5
14 +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Nobility Feat
15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9
16 +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Leader +3, Influence +6,
17 +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Nobility Feat
18 +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Mass suggestion,
19 +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Influence +7
20 +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Leader +4, Nobility Feat

I don’t think we should modify the saves, I see no reason a Noble should have good fortitude or reflex so intend to balance this another way.

So what we have here is ¾ bab and 1 good save. D8 hit die, and good skill progression.

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier


Special Abilities:

· Wealth: If the character takes Aristocrat as her first level, she gains this as a free bonus Feat. If not, she must earn this Feat before taking a level of Aristocrat. What does the wealth feat provide Nift? Does anyone know how this feat works?

· Leaders Voice: I like this idea but the noble here shouldn’t get all the abilities of Gez’s Aristocrat who is a great inspirational speaker. Frighten, suggestion, mass suggestion, can only be used in situations where you can use your influence bonus.

· Influence: At 1st and every 3 levels. The Aristocrat gains the indicated bonus to Circumstance bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks when dealing with those who move in the circles relating to her Wealth.

· Leadership: The Aristocrat gains the Leadership Feat for free at 6th level. Do to various input decided to go full version of leadership.

· Leader: The Aristocrat adds the indicated bonus to her Leadership Score.

· Bonus Nobility Feats: At first level, the aristocrat gets a bonus feat in addition to the feat that any first-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to humans. The aristocrat gains an additional bonus feat at second level and every three levels thereafter (5th, 8th, 11th, etc.). These bonus feats must be drawn from the following list: Alertness, Artist, Cosmopolitan, Education, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Luck of Heroes, Resist Poison, Smooth Talk. Considering adding the mounted combat, ride by attack, and skill focus in politics, geography and history feats.

· Contacts: You receive 1 contact at 6th and 1 more every 4 levels. You can use your wealth to purchase items or favors if you are in your native country, in the form of letters of credit even if the funds are far away if the Dm allows it. Edited to 6th, Wish’s imput

· Privileged: Literacy in native language. At no cost. This is not free in my games for other classes, other DM’s may wish to allow a bonus language due to the Noble’s education.

· Wealth: At 2nd level and up an aristocrat automatically gains 6d8x10x Aristocrat’s levels in gold. He must return to his homeland and collect this wealth.
Leader's Voice: Once per day per level, an aristocrat can use his knowledge of diplomacy to produce magical effects with bolstering, peremptory, or disheartening speeches. Depending on the ranks he has in the Diplomacy skill, he can inspire courage in allies, counter magical effects that depends on sound, frighten enemies to make them flee or surrender, inspire competence, make a magical suggestion, inspire greatness, make a magical lesser geas or rally creatures to his causes. An (multiclassed) aristocrat can't cast a spell with a verbal (V) component when performing a speech, but he can otherwise perform other actions that do not rely on voice while speaking. Creatures must hear and see the aristocrat to be affected. As with casting a spell with a verbal (V) component, a deaf aristocrat suffers a 20% chance to fail with leader's voice. If he fails, the attept still count against his daily limit. Unless otherwise stated, all applications of leader's voice are mind-affecting, language-dependant supernatural effects that lasts as long as the aristocrat is speaking; and an aristocrat can make a speech last for up to 1 round per aristocrat level.

Inspire Courage: A 1st-level aristocrat with 3 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his bolstering voice to inspire courage in his allies. To be affected, an ally must hear the aristocrat for a full round. The effect last as long as the aristocrat speech (up to 1 round per aristocrat level), plus one full round thereafter. Affected allies receive a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against charm and fear effects. Every six aristocrat levels after the fist (7th, 13th, 19th), the bonus increases by +1.
Inspire Competence: A 3rd-level aristocrat with 6 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his voice to increase an ally's self-confidence and give him a greater sense of duty. The ally gets a +2 morale bonus on his skill checks with a particular skill as long as he continue to hear the aristocrat's encouragements (thus, for up to 1 round per aristocrat level). The DM may rule that certain uses of that ability are infeasible.

Frighten: A 4th-level aristocrat with 7 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his voice to dishearten enemies by promising them their doom if they don't surrender or flee. Every enemy within 90 feet of the aristocrat must succeed at a Will save opposed (DC 10 + half the aristocrat's class levels + the aristocrat's Charisma modifier) or become frightened and be forced to flee or to passively wait to be manacled (at the aristocrat's option). Any actual attack against surrendering enemies instantly break the effect. This is a supernatural fear, mind-affecting, language-dependant effect that lasts as up to 1 round per aristocrat level.

Suggestion: A 6th-level aristocrat with 9 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his peremptory voice to give an order that can't be disobeyed to a creature within 90 by speaking for three full rounds. A Will saving throw (DC 13 + the aristocrat's Charisma modifier) negate this spell-like, mind-affecting charm effect. If the save is failed, the victim is affected by a suggestion, as the spell. The effect lasts for 1 hour per character level, or until completed.

Inspire Greatness: A 9th-level aristocrat with 12 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his bolstering voice to inspire greatness to another creature, granting extra fighting capability. For every three levels the aristocrat attains beyond ninth, he can inspire greatness to another creature. This otherwise works like inspire courage. A creature inspired with greatness gains the following boosts (all bonuses are competence bonuses):
· +2 Hit Dice (d10 that grant temporary hit points).
· +2 competence bonus on attacks.
· +1 competence bonus on all Fortitude saves.
Apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to each bonus Hit Dice. These extra Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining effects such as the sleep spell.

Rally: A 12th-level aristocrat with 15 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his convincing voice to rally NPCs to his cause by speaking to them for five full rounds. Once the speech is made, he gains a +5 bonus on his Diplomacy check to influence these NPC's attitude toward him and his companion (see NPC Attitude, page 149 in the Dungeon Master's Guide).

Mass suggestion: A 18th-level aristocrat with 21 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use his peremptory voice to give an order that can't be disobeyed to one creature per two levels within 90 by speaking for five full rounds. A Will saving throw (DC 16 + the aristocrat's Charisma modifier) negate this spell-like, mind-affecting charm effect. If the save is failed, the victims are affected by a mass suggestion, as the spell. The effect lasts for 1 hour per character level, or until completed.

So this is what I got so far, ideas and help credited to Wish, Gez and Nift.

 

[Wish]

First thing to remember is that the NPC classes are way behind the power curve to begin with, so resist the temptation to take anything away (such as class skills or weapon proficiencies) unless you're adding something huge. Looking at the powers you're giving them, they're not getting anything huge. If you're making it a PC class, the literacy should be automatic, with no skill points spent, like every other PC class besides barbarian. The money will ammount to less than a 10% bonus over their career, which is probably within the variation range between PCs anyway, unless your group is unusually strict about splitting treasure evenly. The contacts are interesting, but unless they can kill monsters and rescue kidnapped young princes for you, they're going to be of limited utility in the field, so they don't really replace things like armor proficiency. The bonus of Leadership is weak, especially since it's only half a feat, and not even the good half. What's going to happen is that all your aristocrats are going to end up taking Leadership anyway, because the half version isn't worth having.

Then we go to the other end of the spectrum - the Diplomacy bonus is way too good. It's already very easy to get big diplomacy bonuses. A recent thread had a DM lamenting over his player's 3rd level character with a +23 Diplomacy score. Letting the Aristocrat add another 5-25 points to that is going to seriously throw the balance out of an already warped mechanic.

Ok, enough with the criticism, on to construction. To make this playable as a PC, look at the role. Not in society, but in an adventuring party. The basic class has one good save, cleric/rogue BAB, and a decent skill list, and good armor/weapon proficiencies. That makes it most similar to the rogue clas, but obviously far weaker (no sneak attack, no super cool abilities, half as many skill points). It fills the roles of second line fighter and second line skill character. It's a mundane class, so adding magical abilities wouldn't be appropriate, instead I'd recommend adding mundane abilities like skills, feats, or unusual talents.

Grant automatic literacy at 1st level. Keep the money thing, that's flavorful and not really very powerful (unless you're playing a very treasure poor campaign). Keep the Contacts for the same reason, flavorful but not very powerful. Alternately, make the "Contacts" a supplement to the Leadership feat starting at 6th level rather than 4th, and let them be second-tier cohorts (say, 2 levels lower than the primary cohort) who can carry out independent tasks. Bump skill points to 6 per level base - the rouge stays the master of skills, but the aristocrat seems to be a skill based character, so move it up there with the other similar classes. Finally, the easiest way to beef up an underpowered class is to award bonus feats. It's far less work than designing new and special powers, and runs into fewer balance issues.

I'd suggest a bonus feat at every even level except those at which a Contact (or secondary cohort) is gained. The bonus feat at 6th level is Leadership (the full-blown version with cohort). Create a bonus feat list that's appropriate to Aristocrats. I'd include things like the various skill boosting feats (Skill Focus, Trustworthy), the mounted combat feats, and the defensive feats (Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Combat Expertise). I wouldn't include any of the offensive feats other than the Mounted Combat chain. Remember they can always use their regular feats on offense if they prefer.

You'd end up with a class with d8 hp, cleric bab, one good save, a fighter-like feat progression (but less combat effective feats), a pretty good skill set - about equivalent to the bard's or ranger's but not quite as good as the expert's or rogue's, and two relatively minor special powers.

Compare to the fighter - very similar, but the fighter gets more hp, better bab, and better feats, but fewer skills and only one very weak special power (the ability to qualify for the higher level fighter-only feats).

Compare to the rogue - rogue gets fewer hp, but better skills, and a host of powerful special abilities in place of the bonus feats and weapon/armor proficiencies.

Compare to the ranger - they get a similar skill set, and hp, but the ranger gets full BAB and 2 good saves. The special abilities are very cool, but somewhat limited, probably making them a wash with the bonus feats from the new Aristocrat class.

I don't think the new aristocrat as I've suggested designing him would outshine other PCs in a typical party, but he would not be useless either. He'd be an average second line fighter, and an above average skill-based character. He wouldn't be the "best" class for anything in particular. Hope this helps some.

 

[Meadred]

Err, not that I particulary want to be a kill-joy, but in case you don't know, Mongoose Publishing has already done this. They have a sourcebook called "The Quintessential Aristocrat" for sale at RPGNow.com. Here is a short excerpt from the "about blurb":

"The Quintessential Aristocrat is a sourcebook for aristocrat characters, designed to expand the class and make it a playable character class that can stand alongside any of the core classes."

So, if you don't mind putting up $10, then you can spare yourself the work.

BTW, you might also want to check out "The Noble's Handbook" by Green Ronin. It has a Noble core class that is quite nice.

Cheers,
Meadred

 

[Gez]

Here's the version I use. It has not proven overpowered.
http://gez117.free.fr/dnd/aristocrat.html

 

[Nifft]

Here's my version. Two PCs so far in one game, not overpowered.

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/DHE/new-classes.shtml

-- N

 

[mercucio]

Spider,

I've attached a Word doc containing the Noble class used in my campaign. It's based loosely off the Noble class from the Wheel of Time RPG, and grants the noble talents from the Charismatic Hero basic (from d20 Modern).

 

[Nifft]

If you don't like the bounty of classes provided, and wish to roll your own (despite our best efforts), here's my "behind-the-curtain" reasoning behind the choices in my Aristocrat core class.

1) Mixes well with everything: shouldn't have any ability that requires 20 levels of Aristocrat.

2) Not a Fighter: shouldn't get bonus Feats, since nothing's stopping you from taking a few levels of Fighter.

3) Not a Rogue: shouldn't have more skills -- or better skills -- than a Rogue.

4) Not a Bard: Aristocrats can take Bard levels if they want Bardic Music effects. Or, some sort of Warchanter-like or Marshall-like "Officer" PrC can fill that role.

5) Survival is paramount! People are always trying to assassinate Nobles, under the ancient law of "kill people and take their stuff". So Aristocrats must be trained at an early age to survive. Thus, all good saves.

6) Good leaders -- that's why the bonus in Leadership score, and the Diplomacy & Intimidate bonus. Also, so they have an excuse to say "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!?!?" and have it grant an actual in-game effect.

7) Flexible over many archtypes -- thus the large skill list, which hopefully doesn't intrude too much onto the Rogue's list. (E.g. Survival -- some places, only Nobles get to hunt. So it would make sense that some can actually do so.) If your setting (or a particular region of your setting) has only one archtype, reduce the Aristocrat's skill list as appropriate, and give her some kind of +2 skill bonus at 3rd level for a pair of skills that do fit her archtype.

-- N

 

[Gez]

I find it a bit silly myself that a noble would have to start fiddling with a lute in order to motivate his troops, personally.

And the bonus feats my noble gets are not bonus fighter feats. (I still don't understand why WotC hasn't made "Martial" or "Combat" a feat category, so that fighters would get bonus martial feats, and dodge or cleave would be martial feats rather than general feats.) Instead, the bonus feats allow to take things like Resist Poison or Lightning Reflexes (survival aspect), or things like Smooth Talk (good leader). In addition, they have a bonus to Leadership score, too.

 

[Nifft]

IMC, the Expert is the guy who gets bonus non-combat feats, so my Aristocrat had to be balanced to not step on his toes, either.

Otherwise, great minds and all that, right Gez?

-- N

 

[The_Spider]

wealth question

Wealth: If the character takes Aristocrat as her first level, she gains this as a free bonus Feat. If not, she must earn this Feat before taking a level of Aristocrat.

So what exactly does this feat do Nift? Anyone know?

The wheel of time version noble has some great abilities but seems a little powerful to me, such as captivate or resource access. Will have to take another look at that version and if used would replace leaders voice more than likely.

Any thoughts how my noble should be balanced? What abilities should be gained and at what level. Is the feat gain to much? Does this step on the fighters toes? They are non combat feats, that are fitting for a noble, so maybe its ok or maybe this ability is better reserved for the PC version of the expert and should be removed.

Thanks for the great ideas, Nift and others.

I do however disagree about the need for great saves for the noble. Is there only average progression and good progression for saves? Right now the version I am creating has Fort,Reflex,Will at avg./avg./good. which is the same for many of the core classes, 1 good rest average.

How is the noble looking so far, Does he need more abilities, does he need to be nerfed?