Help with walls

[OchreJelly]

Some weird scenarios came up during a recent session with the players using wall spells and their interaction with larger monsters.

In the first example a huge creature is attempting to move through a blade barrier. It needs to enter 3 of the barrier's squares. Here is part of the power's entry:

If a creature enters the barrier’s space or starts its turn there, it takes 3d6 + Wisdom modifier damage plus ongoing 5 damage (save ends).

Now the huge creature entered 3 spaces, so does it take the damage 3 times?

In another example, a large creature is attempting to move through a wall of fire. Because of the way the player positioned it, it will need to move through multiple squares of the wall to get out. Here's part of that power's entry (I'm not quoting the whole part, so I hope that's ok):

Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the wall takes 1d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. If a creature moves into the wall’s space or starts its turn there, the creature takes 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. Entering a square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement.

Because the creature has to move through multiple spaces of the wall to get out, does it take the 3d6 each time it moves into a new part of the wall? Also if a large creature is both in the wall, and partly outside of the wall, does it take both the inside and adjacent damage?

I ruled on the side of dealing more damage, which seems to make these powers pretty strong against bigger creatures. I did tell my players I would research it, but at the time I wanted to wrap things up anyway. Anyone else know more about this? Perhaps some errata I'm missing?

 

[chaotix42]

I thought a creature or effect had a space, not spaces, and that a large creature or wall had one space comprised of many squares. I don't have my books around so I can't confirm that, but if I'm right then no matter how many squares you moved through, you only moved through the space once.

 

[Oompa]

If a large creatures enters the wall, he would get damage once and not for every square..

Would he pass the wall, take damage and than go back into it, he would yet again take damage once..

 

[abyssaldeath]

Can you slide a target multiple times (by using a warlock's diabolic grasp or harrowstorm powers) into a wizard's wall of fire for iterative damage?
There are several factors to take into consideration here. First, a target must move into the wall's space—that is, moving into every square of that space does not inflict iterative damage. However, if a target moves into the wall's space, then back out, and then back in again, it will take more damage; but remember, entering each square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement (which might be possible with a high-level use of a harrowstorm).

The real issue might be with clarification of the word "move," especially as it interacts with push/pull/slide effects.

Design & Development: Ask R&D

The large creature takes damage once.

 

[Armadillo]

Yes, damage is only dealt once.

But, . . .

In another example, a large creature is attempting to move through a wall of fire.

Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the wall takes 1d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. If a creature moves into the wall’s space or starts its turn there, the creature takes 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. Entering a square occupied by the wall costs 3 extra squares of movement.

Notice the emphasized language.

So, at the begining of a creature's turn, damage is dealt if the creature is either adjacent to the wall of fire (1d6+Int. mod.) or in the wall (3d6+Int. mod.). Then if a creature that started adjacent to the wall moves into or through the wall during its turn, it will suffer an additional 3d6+Int. mod. damage.

In this limited circumstance, the wall could inflict damage to a creature twice in one round.

 

[OchreJelly]

ok this makes more sense. I was seeing the wall's individual squares as the source of the damage, rather than treating the wall as one entity (regardless of wall size). I guess part of what confused me was that there are rules specific to squares of the wall (blocking line of site & difficult terrain on individual squares) so I assumed the damage rider applied per square as well.

So a larger creature is either in the wall or adjacent but not both. That makes sense too. As you can imagine ruling it the other way results in some pretty high damage.

 

[OchreJelly]

The devs make this point in the R&D article but don't really resolve it:

The real issue might be with clarification of the word "move," especially as it interacts with push/pull/slide effects.

The wizard likes the synergy of using thunderwave to push things into his WoF. What I find interesting is that the dev points out in the Diabolic Grasp example that it costs 3 extra movement which just seems to confuse the point. A push / pull / slide specifically is "not a move" for purposes of ruling so the "3 extra move to enter" gets ignored in those cases. A warlock with a +5 int mod could wreak some havoc moving a creature in and out of it, however it gets a free save each time.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, as one of the previous posters mentioned, effects are usually determined based on spaces, not squares. Just to clarify, the space of a creature or a zone is the entirety of the area it takes up on the board, not any particular square its space is in.

No doubt there are some powers and whatnot where the wording isn't exactly clear, but in MOST cases as long as you are clear about things being defined in terms of spaces the rules are pretty clear.

The issue of something being slid in and out of a zone for multiple damage is an interesting one. However I'd say in the case of the wall of fire that the slide DOES cost 3 movement. Slide/push/pull and shift ARE expressed in terms of movement points, though that is not really made entirely clear. For example if you can shift two squares you would be able to shift only one square into difficult terrain. I'd have to review the rules on sliding again to be 100% sure if the wording is the same, but IIRC it is. If so it would REQUIRE a slide 3 to push someone into a wall of fire zone's space, but don't take that as the ultimate last word, I could be wrong on that one.

 

[keterys]

A push / pull / slide specifically is "not a move" for purposes of ruling so the "3 extra move to enter" gets ignored in those cases. A warlock with a +5 int mod could wreak some havoc moving a creature in and out of it, however it gets a free save each time.

No, it doesn't get ignored. Forced movement ignores difficult terrain, but it does indeed require a push/slide of 4 to push someone into a single square of Wall of Fire.

Now, lots of other terrain doesn't have that restriction - I just Diabolic Grasped someone through a Grasping Shadows twice a couple days ago, for instance.

 

[OchreJelly]

No, it doesn't get ignored. Forced movement ignores difficult terrain, but it does indeed require a push/slide of 4 to push someone into a single square of Wall of Fire.

Now, lots of other terrain doesn't have that restriction - I just Diabolic Grasped someone through a Grasping Shadows twice a couple days ago, for instance.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure. You are correct to say forced movement ignores difficult terrain, but the last line in the forced move definition is that it is not a move, and a creature's base speed is irrelevant (paraphrasing).

*shrug* You are probably correct in saying Diabolic Grasp's caster has to count the movement, but it seems sort of corner-case. A little more clarity would probably help. Something like this movement cost applies to forced movement as well. Or they could simply change the "3 extra movement" to be be difficult terrain, although I suspect that would make it more powerful than they intended.

That being said, Blade Barrier is a spell that's the same level as WoF and only counts as difficult terrain (heck they even have the same damage dice). I suspect WoF will eventually get errated to add the clarity or change it to be more in line with Blade Barrier.