Helping a friend who's frustrated over using Diplomacy.

[killem2]

We use:

The Old Rule

She feels like she cannot RP this petal psion she has with a massive diplomacy skill of 29, because she would like to know how she harnesses the power of this skill, she loves the concept of this cute petal that has an amazing ability to talk down people and converse her way through actions.


Well I asked her what frustrates her about this skill: (and I quote)

"That its not clear when it will work."

"That I can't just sway and talk pretty and roll."

"I have to have leverage or something to get what I want and its annoying cause I know nothing about 95 % of races and classes to know what to offer.
Like the dragon for example. We killed her baby."

[for background we did kill a medium dragon that was the baby of a Huge White Dragon and it came for us. We killed it, but before we even got into the fighting, she wants to know if diplomacy could have helped and how?]

"I wanted to talk thru my psi crystal to her until I knew she wouldn't eat me off the bat and sway her it wasn't our fault but she knew."

"But I had nothing to offer"

"the mentalist, that's who want her to be like patrick jayne"

What would you say to this frustrated player? How can we help her?

 

[JamesonCourage]

Um... well, it's a pretty good rule (I use a modified version of it for my RPG). I'm not sure how to make it more clear; you offer something to someone based on what they might want. If there's an angry dragon, you say "don't eat me, and we'll help you find the real killers" or something similar.

Basically, tell the player, "think about what this thing would want. If you want good results, make them an offer that gives them what they want." This may not work well against all classes or races, but depends heavily on the current situation. That's actually a very strong upside to the rule you're using; each situation is unique, and the DC is changed to fit whoever you're talking to, including their individual wants.

If she can't think about the NPC and try to picture what they want, then you can't help her, unfortunately. It sounds like she might just want to roll and gloss over what the character is actually saying; that's fine for some groups (not mine), but I'm not sure if that works for you. Maybe you can let the other players give her ideas? That might be a better middle ground, depending on your play style.

Barring her adapting or others helping, I'm not sure what to tell you. The rule is designed in such a way that she can't "just sway and talk pretty and roll" and expect things to be resolved. There has to be in-game input, or the rule doesn't function. It sounds like she wants to skip that, and that might mean you have to have her adapt, have others help her, or she may not ever get to use the Diplomacy skill in your game. As always, play what you like

 

[Ragmon]

Heya.

This is how I understand the problem: The DM is using a house rule where you must offer something to the receiver of the diplomacy check to work as described in the PHB.

My opinion on this rule: This rule IMO is already incorporated into the RAW, since barthering/bribing/meeting-some-one-half-way is a part of the diplomacy skill already and does not need to be house ruled. Now as I see it your house rule is about giving the right offer to a specific target, so again IMO if some ones offers is the correct one by the DM's standard, just give the PC a bonus on the check, instead of not allowing her to use the skill if she doesent give and offer. IMO this would encourage players to place points into knowledges and to do some legwork before engaging a targer in conversation (research/spy/gather info on the target first).

What I do is: I use the RAW, and since it says 1 min is required for the check I make the players talk for a whole min, and then make them roll to see how the character delivered the speech. This enforces role-playing.

In closing IMO: Remove the requiremnt for an offer, maybe give a penalty to the PC if she doesent give one to start of the diplomacy check. And just tell the player "The more you know about your target, the better you will succeed at the diplomacy check, or if you don't you get a penalty, this is why we have gather info and knowledge check". Sort of like (not) using tool kits, if you don't use 'em you get a penalty, if you have one then no penalty, if you have a good tool then bonus.

[edited in] PS: She feels like you gimped her primary ability, its like by some house rule a Wizard can only cast spells during the day or something.

 

[Starfox]

Diplomacy has two functions:

A - Improve attitude. This always works, it does not need any kind of reciprocity. It changes how the creature feels about you, warming it up to talk to you and not eat you.

B - Specific suggestions and negotiation. This is where -for-tat negotiation comes in.

As noted above, both take a minute of game time - not necessarily a minute of real time, forcing the player to do a 1-minute solo performance is to limit the Diplomacy skill only to the actors and speakers among your players. There is a massive -10 penalty to do this in one round, but with a Diplomacy of +29, she has a good chance of succeeding even at -10. It does require that the rest of the party play along, tough, and not simply attack everything.

In most cases, it is the first function you want to use, just to get the monster talking and explain its agenda to you. After you know what the monster want, you can make an informed decision of whether to fight or negotiate further. Maybe you as a DM need to give your monsters more of an agenda beyond "eat the party", so that they have a reason to engage in A above, presenting the party with what they want.

A problem with very high Diplomacy scores (the "diplomancer" build) is that by RAW, any encounter with an intelligent creature not immune to charm can be turned into a social encounter. If you have a Diplomacy of +50 (yes, it is doable), you can make any creature you can talk to automatically become your friend in one round. This is not a good idea for a balanced game, as it makes the diplomancer dominate the action completely. The player must accept that some creatures are here to kill you, not to talk. If the DM reciprocates by making some encounters have an agenda and begin by making demands rather than attacking, thus initiating a social scene, the diplomacy player is usually satisfied with that.

In short, every player needs to have their moment in the spotlight. For a diplomacy character, this requires chances to talk and negotiate. They must also accept that the fighting characters want some of the spotlight too, so not all fights can be avoided.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

What Starfox said.

I think it's important that the RAW text of the Diplomacy skill applies to "NPCs," not to "creatures" or "monsters," and that Wild Empathy is specifically called out as applying to magical beasts - implying that sapience alone is not sufficient to make a creature subject to a Diplomacy check. Further, throughout the core literature, a distinction (albeit a vague and imprecise one) is implicitly made between NPCs and monsters - just see how many times the words "NPCs and monsters" or "NPCs and creatures" appear. I am in no way suggesting that this distinction is clear cut, but ...

It rather becomes a question of role, as determined by the DM: i.e. is this creature an NPC (and thus subject to Diplomacy), or a Monster (and therefore not).

 

[Grogg of the North]

Honestly, I've never really ran into problems with Diplomacy as is. The groups I play with though tend to realize that no matter how much you sweet talk someone they will only go so far. YMMV.

Your player has invested a great deal in diplomacy. But she can't use it effectively and she can't role play her character. So you have a couple of options:

1) Go back to just old regular diplomacy. However, make it clear to your player that no matter how much you sweet talk someone, it's only going to get you so far. Rolling diplomacy against the evil wizard's guards might convince them to let you go but it won't cause them to betray the wizard they are fearful of. The clause in Charm Person about what a person might do is a good rule of thumb for diplomacy as well.

2) Let your friend re-invest her diplomacy resources elsewhere.

3) Give the psion some equivalent of Jedi Mind Trick.
Disclaimer: I don't know much about psions so I don't know if they have access to something like this already.

4) Let your player scrap her PC entirely and start over. This is probably the least desirable in my opinion.