D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

[Tony Vargas]

The reason that dash takes away your ability to act is a mechanical construct for game balance.

Dash doesn't take away your ability to act, it is an action, the act of moving twice as fast. Maybe it's a tad abstract, maybe the sharp line between moving your speed & fighting or whatever, and moving 1' more than your speed and doing nothing else is a consequence of abstraction/granularity of the game. But 'balance?' Honestly, if everyone could move 120' a round instead of 30' or 60', it probably wouldn't blow the game to pieces. Indeed, it might make melee combat more competitive with ranged, by reducing exposure to ranged attacks while closing distance?

I was going to say that it's a very slow pace, otherwise. But for most characters that's 60 ft. in 6 seconds. The current world record for the 50 meter dash is sub 6 seconds. That's over 164 feet. Now this isn't ideal conditions for a foot race, and those are modern records, set by athletes that train specifically to sprint, and not wearing typical adventuring equipment, including armor and such... a rogue, arguably equipped lighter and better trained... 90 feet.

Also, the adventurer is maintaining his AC and able to make saving throws, checks, &c at no penalty. And, he can maintain that speed until the DM rules otherwise, so not exactly a 'sprint.'
It'd be reasonable to let a PC trained in Athletics go a lot faster, in a formal race on a prepared track, with checks determining the winner, for instance.

However, I still disagree that it requires a feat to charge with a weapon attack, even one as simple as a spear or a sword held out in front of you.

I put that down to the usual pendulum-swing over-reaction to something being a bit too good last ed.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

However, I still disagree that it requires a feat to charge with a weapon attack, even one as simple as a spear or a sword held out in front of you. In which case the two-round attack of the gnolls disappears.

BTW, since Charger is almost universally denigrated as a weak feat... I don't think anything would break in a campaign if the DM announced that the Charger benefit (bonus action single Attack after Dash, possibly with a damage benefit too) was now part of the base combat rules for all creatures/characters, instead of being gated behind a feat. That's kind of orthogonal to ranged superiority because ranged weapons would still be better along a number of dimensions--but it would make melee monsters more fun for the DM to run.

Naturally a DM could just add in implicit Charger-like abilities for all of his monsters (the same way I've added multi-grapple to every monster that has multi-attack) without house-ruling anything at all; but that just deprives PCs of the same benefit that you're giving out freely to kobolds, blacksmiths and palace guards. Might as well be generous.

There's precedent for this: the DMG adds new bonus action options for Evade and Overrun (plus other things like Disarm as a new style of attack) in the chapter on DM's Workshopping.

I'm not planning on doing this, but then I don't have a problem with the status quo in the first place except for the boringness of the MM and the absurdly short ranges on MM abilities like Medusa gazes (which are unaffected by this hypothetical fix).

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Dash doesn't take away your ability to act, it is an action, the act of moving twice as fast. Maybe it's a tad abstract, maybe the sharp line between moving your speed & fighting or whatever, and moving 1' more than your speed and doing nothing is a consequence of abstraction/granularity of the game. But 'balance?' Honestly, if everyone could move 120' a round instead of 30' or 60', it probably wouldn't blow the game to pieces. Indeed, it might make melee combat more competitive with ranged, by reducing exposure to ranged attacks while closing distance?

Good point, it is an action. It's not the distance that I was referring to in terms of balance. I was referring to the fact that it does not allow you to make an attack as a charge, and that decision was made for some sort of balance reason since not everybody can do it.

Also, the adventurer is maintaining his AC and able to make saving throws, checks, &c at no penalty. And, he can maintain that speed until the DM rules otherwise, so not exactly a 'sprint.'
It'd be reasonable to let a PC trained in Athletics go a lot faster, in a formal race on a prepared track, with checks determining the winner, for instance.

Yep. But sometimes you just want to run as fast as you can to get away. And it seems like you should be able to go faster than that, with some sort of accompanying penalties.

I put that down to the usual pendulum-swing over-reaction to something being a bit too good last ed.

Didn't really play the last edition, but it has more to do with my discontent with the number of movement options when I think there should be more. It doesn't really have anything to do with any prior rules systems. Part of it has to do with looking at a couple of threads about chase systems and not really being happy with what I typically see there either.

So ultimately it's just that sometimes people run flat out, despite the fact that they can do it for a limited period of time, and the rules are currently well below that fastest speed. Like trying to close the distance against archers in an open field (where their range could be as much as 300+ yards, although not with great aim). Those 15 rounds would be deadly (and should be), although only against a group of archers, not a single one.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yep. But sometimes you just want to run as fast as you can to get away. And it seems like you should be able to go faster than that, with some sort of accompanying penalties.

Or some sort of chase rules.

Didn't really play the last edition

Mearls worked on it, one of the most broken things in it (though errata'd) was a charge-based build, and, next ed, Mearls makes charging a crappy feat. Pendulum swing.

but it has more to do with my discontent with the number of movement options when I think there should be more. Part of it has to do with looking at a couple of threads about chase systems and not really being happy with what I typically see there either.

I can understand that. Never been a strong suit of D&D.

So ultimately it's just that sometimes people run flat out, despite the fact that they can do it for a limited period of time, and the rules are currently well below that fastest speed.

Nod. I think as we get into longer distances the combat rules for movement can more readily be ignored, and DM judgement, especially in 5e, can come into it in a less structured way.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

BTW, since Charger is almost universally denigrated as a weak feat... I don't think anything would break in a campaign if the DM announced that the Charger benefit (bonus action single Attack after Dash, possibly with a damage benefit too) was now part of the base combat rules for all creatures/characters, instead of being gated behind a feat. That's kind of orthogonal to ranged superiority because ranged weapons would still be better along a number of dimensions--but it would make melee monsters more fun for the DM to run.

Naturally a DM could just add in implicit Charger-like abilities for all of his monsters (the same way I've added multi-grapple to every monster that has multi-attack) without house-ruling anything at all; but that just deprives PCs of the same benefit that you're giving out freely to kobolds, blacksmiths and palace guards. Might as well be generous.

There's precedent for this: the DMG adds new bonus action options for Evade and Overrun (plus other things like Disarm as a new style of attack) in the chapter on DM's Workshopping.

I'm not planning on doing this, but then I don't have a problem with the status quo in the first place except for the boringness of the MM and the absurdly short ranges on MM abilities like Medusa gazes (which are unaffected by this hypothetical fix).

It was the first feat that died in my campaign...and yes, anything that can run and has a thrusting attack can charge. It's not a terribly common tactic because it comes with its risks.

I haven't used any gaze attack monsters in a while, but was a bit disappointed in the implementation of the catoblepas mechanics, because it breaks established lore. Its death gaze is feared, but could be avoided because it had difficulty raising its heavy head and you had to meet its gaze. Now it selects a target and just uses its death gaze (really more like a ray). In the Realms, death cheese is made from catoblepas milk, reputedly collected by the blind monks that make it. Most of the gathering is by paid adventurer, but regardless the lore makes no sense if you don't have to meet their gaze and it's less of a risky opportunity and more of a suicide mission to find a herd of catoblepas to milk.

The short ranges make it trivial, though, just stay at longbow range (at least the way long range is handled in the game).

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Or some sort of chase rules.

Working on that...

Mearls worked on it, one of the most broken things in it (though errata'd) was a charge-based build, and, next ed, Mearls makes charging a crappy feat. Pendulum swing.

Ahh. That makes sense. I thought you were referring to my discontent.

I can understand that. Never been a strong suit of D&D. Nod. I think as we get into longer distances the combat rules for movement can more readily be ignored, and DM judgement, especially in 5e, can come into it in a less structured way.

Agreed, and I'm sure you know I'm still considering the 1 minute round and at that point it becomes pretty much irrelevant, especially in a dungeon environment. I've limited folks (in theory anyway) to the old 120 feet instead of the 300 feet the current approach would allow in a minute, but the reality is that's not really true since I'm only TotM at this stage anyway.

I tend to think in terms of within charging range, within melee closing range, and outside of short range (because I have significant penalties for archery at longer ranges).

 

[pemerton]

My examination of authorial intent was in response to the above quote from [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] where it appears to me that he was having trouble separating the intent of the designers from his own preferences and wasn't helpful to the conversation.

I agree that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] doesn't always separate rules suggestions (which are about play experience in relation to table expectations etc) and formal design suggestions (which are about WotC publishing strategy, which is mostly a commercial strategy that a typical poster can at best have modest insight into). I've said that myself a few times upthread.

But I think the less we get distracted by that, and the more we focus on the useful stuff, the more productive for the thread! (And for clarity - that's not a dig or attack. I think we're largely ad idem.)

 

[pemerton]

The idea that one can run to the exclusion of all else is most assuredly based on reality.

How much experience do you have of running at approx 7 mph (= approx 10 kph).? It's not that fast.

A Google of "charge speed" turned up this:

This instruction from the Manual and Platoon Exercise explains how British bayonet charges were supposed to progress:

"It is to be understood, that whenever a battalion or line charges with bayonets, the whole are in the first instance to porte their arms and advance at a firm quick step, or at a steady run, if the circumstances render it necessary, but in the most perfect order possible, until they reach the enemy: It is at that instant that the front rank are necessarily to bring their firelocks down to the charging position, and the whole to press forward with the utmost energy."​

In a 5e world, if the targets of the British bayonet charge were to shroud themselves in a harm-inflicting aura the British might take the damage twice if their "pressing forward with the utmost energy" happened to mean that they reached the enemy at the end of a round, and had to actually resolve their attack at the start of the next round.

The reason that dash takes away your ability to act is a mechanical construct for game balance.

Agreed.

I still disagree that it requires a feat to charge with a weapon attack, even one as simple as a spear or a sword held out in front of you. In which case the two-round attack of the gnolls disappears.

Are you suggesting a rules interpretation (in which case can you elaborate?) or a rules change (in which case, yes, that would be one change that could be made to deal with the stop-motion paradox).

EDIT: having read a few more posts, I think you're suggesting a rules change. A bit like [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s "everyone can bonus attack following a dash."

 

[Ilbranteloth]

How much experience do you have of running at approx 7 mph (= approx 10 kph).? It's not that fast.

A Google of "charge speed" turned up this:

This instruction from the Manual and Platoon Exercise explains how British bayonet charges were supposed to progress:

"It is to be understood, that whenever a battalion or line charges with bayonets, the whole are in the first instance to porte their arms and advance at a firm quick step, or at a steady run, if the circumstances render it necessary, but in the most perfect order possible, until they reach the enemy: It is at that instant that the front rank are necessarily to bring their firelocks down to the charging position, and the whole to press forward with the utmost energy."​

In a 5e world, if the targets of the British bayonet charge were to shroud themselves in a harm-inflicting aura the British might take the damage twice if their "pressing forward with the utmost energy" happened to mean that they reached the enemy at the end of a round, and had to actually resolve their attack at the start of the next round.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting a rules interpretation (in which case can you elaborate?) or a rules change (in which case, yes, that would be one change that could be made to deal with the stop-motion paradox).

Nice find, now you've sent me into another couple of hours of research into minutia that will matter to nobody in my game except me!

Yes, rules change. These are mine (using my initiative rules):

Charging
You must Dash for at least 15 ft. and may make a melee weapon attack, knockdown, push or tackle attempt as a bonus action.
Make an initiative check. If the target wins initiative, in addition to their normal options, they may:
Dash. They can run away from you.
Grapple. Initiate a grapple as reaction.
Move. Move out of the way and, if desired, attempt to trip you as a reaction.
Set Against Charge. Use their reaction to set a piercing weapon attack you with a +5 bonus to damage.
If the weapon has reach and attack hits you, your charge is halted.

If you win initiative, you may:
Attack. Make a melee attack with a +5 bonus to the damage roll if using a piercing weapon.
Knockdown. You have advantage on your Strength (Athletics) check against their Dexterity (Acrobatics) or Strength (Athletics) (their choice), if they fail they are pushed back up to 10 feet and knocked prone. You can continue to move forward; it costs an additional 5 feet to run over them.
Push. You have advantage on your Strength (Athletics) check. You can push the creature 10 feet for each +1 of Strength modifier you have (minimum 10 feet).
Tackle. You have advantage on your Strength (Athletics) check. If you succeed you grapple the target and both of you are prone.
The benefits of a charge are based on a stationary target. If the target is running away from you, use the standard Knockdown/push/tackle rules.

For the moment, the distance is arbitrary. After following your link it might change...

 

[hawkeyefan]

How much experience do you have of running at approx 7 mph (= approx 10 kph).? It's not that fast.

A Google of "charge speed" turned up this:

This instruction from the Manual and Platoon Exercise explains how British bayonet charges were supposed to progress:

"It is to be understood, that whenever a battalion or line charges with bayonets, the whole are in the first instance to porte their arms and advance at a firm quick step, or at a steady run, if the circumstances render it necessary, but in the most perfect order possible, until they reach the enemy: It is at that instant that the front rank are necessarily to bring their firelocks down to the charging position, and the whole to press forward with the utmost energy."​

In a 5e world, if the targets of the British bayonet charge were to shroud themselves in a harm-inflicting aura the British might take the damage twice if their "pressing forward with the utmost energy" happened to mean that they reached the enemy at the end of a round, and had to actually resolve their attack at the start of the next round.

I no longer know what the point is, so okay.