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D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Totes. Heck, in the context of this discussion, where "rules" are supposedly interfering with "narrative", I'm going to need to see a quote, or page reference, that indicated NPCs are entitled to three death saves before dying. Otherwise I question why [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION] would have even brought such an example up in the first place?

That was one of the things that the other folks pointed out to the DM, that NPCs and monsters generally didn't receive such death saves. He was a new DM. But that's not relevant.

The players even considered it as viable, and did so because that's how they understood the rules to work, and those game rules became the way they portrayed their character's actions in the world. I've seen other examples too. Trying to see if I can find the original thread.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
The PCs are probably aware of all these factors, but the reality of the universe they live in is that for some reason, people don't die as easily as they do in our universe--so it would be wrong to transpose attitudes from our universe into that one.
In some ways, death in a D&D-rules-as-biology world is surprisingly decorous. There's not a lot of flopping around in mortal agony, staggering or groaning. Just up and fighting one instant, blessedly unconscious, but technically 'dying' the next... until someone comes up and desultorily ties a DC 10 bandage on your mortal wound, then you'll be fine (1 hp of fine, anyway) in 1d4 hours.
Prettymuch a PG-13 universe.

(I lampshaded that in a planes-hopping game once or twice, the party visited a somewhat grimmer world where people took long agonizing minutes to bleed to death when stabbed by a spear.
The evil half-orc pirate loved that world...)
 
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happyhermit

Adventurer
Grim subject.

The death save rules actually are pretty representative of reality in this case, though I doubt they were designed for it. If someone's throat was slit, it would take them 18 seconds (3 rounds) to actually die, likely quite a bit longer.

Depending on how badly the "throat was slit", with fast and good trauma care it need not necessarily be fatal. Healing magic in D&D far surpasses modern medicine, so it should have a chance at saving someone if applied in seconds.

Now, it is incredibly risky IRL, but it is even if you give the NPC death saves and run everything according to those rules (NPC and monsters don't have death saves by default). As mentioned, the attacker could ensure the death is final.
 

Corwin

Explorer
That was one of the things that the other folks pointed out to the DM, that NPCs and monsters generally didn't receive such death saves. He was a new DM. But that's not relevant.

The players even considered it as viable, and did so because that's how they understood the rules to work, and those game rules became the way they portrayed their character's actions in the world. I've seen other examples too. Trying to see if I can find the original thread.
But it is very relevant. What is the benefit of arguing, that the rules can adversely affect the narrative, when your example is not represented by the actual rules? It's no different had you argued, the rules poorly emulate realistic physics, because you allow PCs to leap 100' per point of Strength.
 

pemerton

Legend
In 4e, they recognized that lists of exclusions not only get long, but doesn't really fix the problem because it continues to provide room for loopholes. The 4e rules continued the trend of more rules, but switched to an exclusive methodology. That is, you can only do what the rules say you can do.
I'm not sure why you say this. It seems contradicted by the heading "Actions the Rules Don't Cover" on p42 of the DMG. There's other stuff, too, that points in the same direction, but that's probably enough to make the point.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
FWIW, that seems as legitimate to me as relying on a Revivify spell. The tactic could still go wrong in a number of ways: (1) Hostage's HPs are low enough that the villain insta-kills the hostage with no death saves required; (2) villain knows the gameworld physics as well as you do and is planning on sawing the victim's head off (i.e. stabbing for auto-crits until 3 death saves are achieved); (3) there may be repercussions for getting your throat cut and surviving it, e.g. it may be very painful and cause psychic trauama or leave scars.

The PCs are probably aware of all these factors, but the reality of the universe they live in is that for some reason, people don't die as easily as they do in our universe--so it would be wrong to transpose attitudes from our universe into that one.

Amputation of limbs is very difficult under the 5E ruleset (I allow if only if you've already failed one death save and therefore your spirit is starting to dissociate from your body), so NPCs at my table look on amputees with a special horror that a medieval peasant from our world would have trouble relating to. Captain Hook isn't just odd to these people, he's disturbingly wrong--as wrong as mating a grizzly bear to a giant owl.

I don't get the feeling that we are quite on the same page, because I don't get the feeling that you would extrapolate the world this way. Maybe it's partly because I come to (A)D&D from a Spelljammer background; binary gravity and phlogiston and alternate physics is part of what D&D is and always has been to me. People in my 5E game aren't even made out of atoms, they're made out of vaguely Aristotelian elements like "flesh" and "bone".

(What I don't get about the death saves/hostage scenario is why any DM would set up those rules for his game and then get upset when the PCs want to play by them. Or rather, I understand it at an intellectual level--those DMs probably see the rules as loosely modelling the game world, but the master copy of the world is the fiction in the DM's head and not embedded in the rules--but I don't relate to it emotionally. How could you blame players for playing by the rules you gave them for the universe you invented? I can understand a DM feeling dissatisfied afterward and wanting to revise his rules because it didn't match his intended aesthetic, but I can't understand why he would be upset at the players and not at himself.)

They were playing by standard 5e rules. The players didn't know that NPCs wouldn't have death saves, or that excessive damage could kill them, etc, and neither did the new DM.

I would have no issue whatsoever with your Spelljammer campaign. You've specifically decided on an alternate physics for your campaign. I'm just saying the physics in your campaign should function the way you want them to, and not be changed inadvertently because of the way the rules are written. I do agree with you. If you want the physics of the world to mean that rocks are springy and falling doesn't cause damage, that water is toxic to orcs, and people don't need air to breathe, or whatever else you come up with, it makes no difference to me. It's your world. But the rules (likely after some modifications by you) should support that, not change it.

The death save rule is not put in place to change the physics of the default campaign world. It's there to make the PCs a little more resilient so they don't die so easily. Resurrection magic is more readily available, also so players don't have to lose their PC if they happen to be killed. If a DM wants to make that into a world where people actually view resurrection magic as common and failsafe enough that people don't fear death, and where the death saves actually have a recognized and expected effect, then fine. People don't fear death like they do here, and folks might actually know somebody who has been revived or resurrected. But I don't think that's the intention of those rules - they weren't making a world-building decision, they were making a decision to prevent players from being upset if their favorite character died.

But the DM clearly wasn't doing that. He was doing a classic hostage situation, where threatening the life of the hostage sets up a dilemma for the PCs. In the DMs mind the physics of death were the same as they are here. Permanent, and that cutting the throat of somebody is pretty much a guaranteed death.

The players (wrong) interpretation of the rules led them to view the physics of the world through the lens of game rules, rather than the fictional world. If it were a PC, then they would have received the death saves anyway, in which case their interpretation of the rules would have been correct, and I still think it's the wrong solution for the PCs to come to unless the physics of the world have been specifically defined in a way that death works differently.

I have no problem with amputation or decapitations in my campaign. It's not easy to do, but it can happen and I have the rules in place to support it. It's another good example of how the rules can change the actions or physics of the game. The Angry GM had a session where his players fought a hydra, and not one of them tried to lop off a head. He asked why afterwards, and their answer was that they didn't know they could do that. There's actually a relevant rule, but it's in the description of the Hydra, and his players hadn't read the MM. They were of the mindset that if the rules didn't say you could do something, then it wasn't allowed.

My point is really that the world and its physics should work the way you want it to, and not be changed because of a game rule.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
But it is very relevant. What is the benefit of arguing, that the rules can adversely affect the narrative, when your example is not represented by the actual rules? It's no different had you argued, the rules poorly emulate realistic physics, because you allow PCs to leap 100' per point of Strength.

First, because they thought that was the rule, thus their interpretation of the rule, although wrong, led to their decision making process.

Second, if it were a PC instead of an NPC, then the rule would have applied, and they still were altering the physics of the world via the rule, and in a way that clearly bothered the DM and was certainly not they way he viewed the world.

As a new DM, he didn't feel empowered to change the rule at the time. That is also wrong. But the bottom line remains the same, the players used a rule to change the physics of the world in a way not approved by the DM.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I'm not sure why you say this. It seems contradicted by the heading "Actions the Rules Don't Cover" on p42 of the DMG. There's other stuff, too, that points in the same direction, but that's probably enough to make the point.

I say that because of all the people I know personally that either tried 4e and didn't continue, and those that did play it, had that impression of the rules.

Perception is often more important than the facts. But you are correct, it points to the design having a different intent than what I stated.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Some of us consider excessive DM fiat a cure worse than the disease.

Another thing I don't fully understand. Not because it hasn't been explained in great detail, and certainly it's not a good thing with a bad DM, but it's just not a feeling that I've ever experienced, even when I've had a bad DM. I can understand that for some people it's a very, very important thing.

I kind of equate it to music that moves me. I can't really explain to somebody else (even though I'm a musician) why a particular piece of music does. It just does. And I can't make it move you, it either does or it doesn't.

The same applies to being a parent. Until you're a parent, you just can't really know what it's like to be a parent.

Ironically, the part I like best about role-playing as a player, is putting myself in the shoes of somebody different. Trying to learn what makes them tick, and how they grow.

I just prefer to have somebody intelligent behind the screen helping pull together things into a cohesive whole, and I don't really even care how that happens. I don't buy into the player agency thing. As long as I'm making decisions, and it feels like I'm contributing to the game and the fiction I'm a happy guy. I don't care if it was the luck of a random die roll, or a DM fudge or whatever.

And yes, I know somebody will tell me that if the DM makes the decision, then your player's decision didn't mean anything. That's just not the way I view the world or the game, and never will. When I get to be a player, if I get to build a character that I enjoy and have shared input, from dice, DM and the other players, than it was time well spent. If I happened to live longer and get to spend more time with the character because of a helpful DM, I'm OK with that too.

My goal isn't whether the character will live or die, succeed or fail by my hand or the hand of fate. It's whether or not we had a fun shared experience and I got a chance to consider the ramifications of the events of the world and how my character reacts to that. The specific events, why those events occurred, and whether they were "pure" or not is irrelevant to me. Because it's not about the events (although we enjoy reminiscing about that too, since it's a shared experience). To me, it's about how that character reacts to those events.
 

pemerton

Legend
Some people, like myself, are engaging with the game via the rules not as a game but as a world. That is, let's assume the rules accurately model a world--what can we say about that world?

This has the advantage of ensuring that things that happen in that world aren't dependent on whether or not the players are there via PCs playing a game at the time.
And as I posted upthread in reply to [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION], there are reasons to engage via the rules even if not playing in the manner you describe - namely, application of the rules tells us whether or not action declarations are successful. And success or failure in action declaration is what determines events in the shared fiction.

(When there is no action declaration - eg in backstory - mechanics are irrelevant. Overall coherence is about consistent framing and stakes-setting, so an input into resolution, not an output of it.)
 

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