Here Comes the Jury!

[BryonD]

but a paladin still has to follow the chivalric ideas of honor- DJ

He did.

A backstab is a backstab and a cowardly act especially against an unarmed man.

So the paladin should put his own reputation before the life of the girl?

 

[Zimri]

I saw this in the other thread but just had to respond after seeing numerous people use it (not you specifically, Zimri, your post was just a good jump-point):



You have to initiate a grapple, then win a grapple check, THEN put him where you want him. Alternately, bull rushing, you have to move on him, (ignore the AoO because of his level), then win a contest, and then you only move him the amount you won the contest by. Neither is a sure thing, and either could get the HELPLESS girl (chained to the chair, I recall) stabbed. In real life, if my loved one is threatened in similar fashion, and I have deadly force, I would use the deadly force instead of taking chances with my loved one's life.

Initiating a charge or a grapple is still taking chances with the girl's life, because the outcome is VERY uncertain, not nearly as certain as the outcome of use of force, because that paladin has at most a +7 or +8 bonus, versus whatever the commoner's strength is, PLUS a 20-point spread. I've seen a 7th level character lose a grapple contest before to a 2nd level goblin. We ribbed the player for a week thereafter.

I WOULD say he POSSIBLY could have subdued, but there's a -4 on the attack, and if he missed and the evildoer retaliated, then he'd REALLY feel like crap-on-a-stick. Also, the DM could have "Storyfied" it, and let the paladin just "save the day by knocking him aside" automatically, but then we don't have inidication one way or another whether he would have allowed that or not.

I don't mind you signaling me out at all. I am rather happy that someone finally chose to. We do disagree though(geeze go figure eh) we are at least not running the numbers or scenario the same manner.

My POV he is behind the commoner who didn't notice him and is unarmoured. The commoner is flatfooted/surprised so won't be getting his dex modifier if any to ac. Taking all that into account his ac is 10 Paladin BaB at 5th level straight out of the gate before any feats or modifiers is 5. The DM warned him against using his strength bonus so we have to assume he had one. I'ld assume it was greater than a +1 but for arguments sake we'll leave it at +1

So on a grapple or unarmed strike he misses on a 4. The grapple is likely the better choice (bab5 str1) with the flat of his blade he misses on (bab5 str1 subdual -4 weapon focus 1(paladin from PH lists it as the first level feat taken on both builds )) 7, to cut his head off (vindicators stated plan) I really don't know I can't find the rule for called shot to the neck. To hit and not deal subdual damage with the sword he needs a 3. That is only 1 lower than the 4 needed to initiate the grapple and the odds are in his favour during the grapple check he AUTOMATICALLY wins on a 14 or better on his side or if the perp rolls less than 7, and the perp has to beat him by 6 just to tie.

All of that is moot however because honour is what he is supposed to exude and attacking from behind doesn't do that. covering a ten your old in spraying blood as the now severed head falls into her lap and the dead cold eyes stare at her and blink one last time doesn't do that, making her a witness to a CRIME of passion doesn't do that.

 

[Drow Jones]

He did.

Ok.

So the paladin should put his own reputation before the life of the girl?

Don't be silly. Reputation has nothing to do with what we're discussing. In any case, A paladin is not concerned about his reputation. He acts honorably even when alone.

At that very moment the life of the girl was not threatened according to the original post. The rapist was unzipping his fly, not reaching for a dagger. The paladin backstabbed an unarmed man with pants around his ankles from behind.

- DJ

 

[Henry]

All of that is moot however because honour is what he is supposed to exude and attacking from behind doesn't do that. covering a ten your old in spraying blood as the now severed head falls into her lap and the dead cold eyes stare at her and blink one last time doesn't do that, making her a witness to a CRIME of passion doesn't do that.

Totally different point of view than mine - namely, that the paladin would even slice in such a way as to have the body or head fall on the girl. He would slice likely AWAY from the girl, not toward, as there would be a possiblity of hitting her with his stroke - but again, that's artistic license, same as putting his head in her lap.

Interesting Off-topic note: I discussed this with my wife last night, and she told me if she were ever in a similar position, she gave me free permission to spill as much of the attacker's blood as I wished to. Her total non-D&D opinion was, to put it mildly, MUCH more ferocious than mine about what to do with the evildoer, and what accolades to give the paladin.

 

[BryonD]

Ok.

Don't be silly. Reputation has nothing to do with what we're discussing. In any case, A paladin is not concerned about his reputation. He acts honorably even when alone.

At that very moment the life of the girl was not threatened according to the original post. The rapist was unzipping his fly, not reaching for a dagger. The paladin backstabbed an unarmed man with pants around his ankles from behind.

- DJ

Being cowardly is a matter of reputation. Even if it is only between oneself and their god. To even consider the perceived cowardice of an action over the consequences is to put his reputation above her life.

And right, "at the very moment" she was in no danger. Thankfully, that paladin was aware of this and used that fleeting momonet to save her. If he had acted as you seem to suggest, the next moment would have come and a dagger could be at the girls throat. What percent chance of that? 1/2 percent? 1/10th? What percent risk of this girls life is the paladin's honor worth?

(Aside from my maintained position that flat out killing certain individuals was never considered to be dishonorable in the first place....)

 

[BryonD]

Interesting Off-topic note: I discussed this with my wife last night, and she told me if she were ever in a similar position, she gave me free permission to spill as much of the attacker's blood as I wished to. Her total non-D&D opinion was, to put it mildly, MUCH more ferocious than mine about what to do with the evildoer, and what accolades to give the paladin.

GRIN

God forbid a rape victim who is about to be re-raped suffer the trauma of the sight of blood.

 

[Drow Jones]

Being cowardly is a matter of reputation. Even if it is only between oneself and their god. To even consider the perceived cowardice of an action over the consequences is to put his reputation above her life.

Acting like a coward will get you a craven's reputation , but reputation is not the motivating force for a paladain when it comes to being honorable. A paladin is honorable for honor's sake and acts accordingly. Reputation follows from his actions, but I'd say that most paladins could not care less about their reputation among others. I don't think you can have "a reputation" between oneself and your god, but that's semantics. (I'd call it a relationship.)

And right, "at the very moment" she was in no danger. Thankfully, that paladin was aware of this and used that fleeting momonet to save her. If he had acted as you seem to suggest, the next moment would have come and a dagger could be at the girls throat. What percent chance of that? 1/2 percent? 1/10th? What percent risk of this girls life is the paladin's honor worth?

His honor is nothing compared to the girls life. That's why it's such a small breach of the paladin's code and easily atoned for. This does not change the fact that it is a breach of the code.

- DJ

 

[Bigwilly]

No

I voted no, but it's definitely up to him to work it out with his DM.

Also, while his PC acted to protect the girl (good), he did so rashly and rather dishounourably (chaotic) so he should suffer some consequences. Depending on the nature of the campaign I would perhaps suggest putting him on trial for murder - he did after all kill a man in cold blood. If he is proven to have acted in the best interests of the girl, he should get off free or with a fine /service to community / warning / etc. - but his DM should make him sweat for a bit, bwahahahahah (oops, guess the DM in me got a bit out of control there).

Bigwilly

 

[BryonD]

This does not change the fact that it is a breach of the code.

- DJ

Well, that is where we are going to disagree.
I've already commented on what the code is and is not.
Not only did he not breech the code, anything less could easily have been to do so.

As far as reputation and all... You used the word cowardly. The act he selected put the safety of the girl ahead of any and all negative consequences to himself. Should he let the girl die because he was afraid to loose his paladin abilities? Saving the girl at all costs is diametrically opposed to cowardace.

 

[Torm]

I find it fascinating that in here, its 70/30, but over in my thread (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89486), with only Paladin players voting, its currently 50/50. Guess maybe that means we're harder on ourselves than the rest of you are on us? Or it might just be a statistical anomaly.....