Heroes Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves

[Psion]

My point is simply that the designer should not have a particular class or character level in mind when he designs the class. It should be inherently balanced; skill ranks should be used to define the skills that a member of the class should have, not as simply a lazy shorthand to pigeon-hole characters of a certain level.

Once again, Wulf, I understand your philosophy. It's just that the material on PrC design (which most publishers use or should use as a guideline) disagree with this philosophy.

DMG page 27
Always balance the power of a prestige class with its requirements. If the requirements of a particular prestige class is not available to characters below 10th level, it can be better than one available to characters at 5th level.

Further, I'll assert that the fundamental problem with your approach to prestige classes is that not all multiclassing is created equal; some combinations are simply weaker because the two classes don't have cumulative abilities and their abilities restart at 1st level potency. But if you are designing a prestige class, another tenet of prestige class design states that the choice of which class to take a level in should be a debatable choice.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Many class abilities are one the basis of 10+PrC level+ability modifier.

Gotcha... I had character level in mind rather than class level-- thinking Feats at the time. I warned ya I was math challenged yesterday.

At least now we're both on the same page regarding your concerns with Skill Focus.

I am ready at this point to concede that, yes, a prestige class that has a single "IT" skill requirement, used simply as an artificial level requirement, with no other balanced skill, feat, or BAB requirements, can be broken by Skill Focus.

But I still maintain that's a problem with the design and balance of the PrC, not Skill Focus. I'd like to see you come around to an agreement on that point.

I strongly dispute that the piece you pulled from the DMG (as if I wasn't aware of it...) is evidence in support of such a narrowly defined prestige class. If you're going to use a single skill as the determining factor, skip the B.S. and just list a level requirement instead (though the DMG is clearly against the use of class or level as a requirement...)

I think in terms of my design philosophy with regard to PrCs, I am closer in spirit and intent to the other guidelines in the DMG-- not simply in entry requirements, but in the design of class abilities and the balance of the class as a whole.

Mother's eyes... touche. Perhaps...

Wulf

-- Without question, the HOHF series is a different beast, since I'm as often as not doing my best to simply design a multiclass hybrid. But, trust that in this discussion, I'm talking to the larger issue of PrC's in general.

 

[Technik4]

Re: Brokenness

From Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3 abuses found, all others have a BAB requirement equal to the level necessary for the skills, or the skills are lower, or corresponding casting ability).

-Divine Seeker: primary entrance skill - Hide 10 ranks (7th level). Other prereqs include Move Silently 8 ranks, Spot 5 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 3 ranks, Patron.

Rog5 can get in as opposed to Rog7 at the expense of 1 feat.

-Guild Thief: primary entrance skill - Hide 8 ranks (5th level). Other prereqs include Gather Info, Intimidate, Move Silently each 3 ranks, Membership.

Rog3 can get in as opposed to Rog5 at the expense of 1 feat. Big Abuses, Reputation can boost Leadership by 1 at 6th level, leading to an inflated cohort.

-Harper Scout: primary entrance skill - Diplomacy 8 ranks (5th level). Other prereqs include Perform 5 ranks, Knowledge (Local) 4 ranks, Sense Motive and Wilderness Lore 2 ranks each, Alertness, Iron Will, Sponsorship.

Rog3 or Brd3 (Human Only) can abuse this. Earlier spell access and possible Favored Enemy abuse.


From Forgotten Realms Magic of Faerun (2 abuses found, all others have 1 high skill requirement corresponding to a high level casting ability (usually 2-4th level spells)).

-Mystic Wanderer: primary entrance skill - Diplomacy 8 ranks (5th level). Other pre-reqs include Alchemy, Knowledge (nature), Perform, and Profession (Herbalist) 3 ranks each, Iron Will, and the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells.

Drd3
1 feat - Iron Will
1 feat - Skill Focus (Diplomacy +2 ranks)

With proper skill selection (Alchemy and Perform are cross class):
Total Skill Points (no Int bonus): 24
Diplomacy 6
Knowledge (Nature) 3
Profession Herbalist 3

Alchemy 3
Perform 3

No points left over. Any level 3 druid can get into this prc by level 4. Big abuses, Timeless Body by 13th level.

-Spellfire Channeler: primary entrance skill Concentration 8 ranks (5th level). Other prereqs include Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft 2 ranks each, Endurance, and Spellfire Wielder.

Wiz3 or Sor1/Mnk2
1 feat - Spellfire Wielder
1 feat - Endurance
Bonus Human Feat - Skill Focus (Concentration +2 ranks)

With proper skill selection (no cross-class skills), you can easily get in 2 levels early. Big Abuses, Spellfire in general, esp healing, flight, and maelstrom of fire 2 levels early.


From Forgotten Realms Silver Marches (0 abuses found, all prc have a BAB requirement equal to the level necessary for the skills, or the skills are lower, or corresponding casting ability is necessary).

From Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons (3 possible abuses found, all other have a BAB requirement equal to the level necessary for the skills, or the skills are lower, or corresponding casting ability is necessary).

Horned Harbringer and Ocular Adept rely on 1 skill and skill focus can get them in 2 levels early. Possible abuses: Horned Harbringer - None, requires DM permission as you much touch an artifact. Ocular Adept - None, requires DM permission as you much swear allegiance to beholders and they must accept you.

-Techsmith, can get in as early as 4th, so biggest abuse lies with Human Sorceror (who has 3 feats, 2 required for class and 1 for skill focus by 3rd level). Still somewhat adjucated by DM as you must visit High Holy Crafthouse of Inspiration on Lantan, not easy to do as a low level character if your DM doesnt want you to.

From Forgotten Realms Races of Faerun (2 abuses found)

-Great Rift Skyguard, ride primary skill, allows access to class 2 level early (3rd instead of 5th). Possible Abuse, Hippogriff Steed by 5th level.

-Warrior Skald, perform primary skill, allows acces to class 2 levels early (4th instead of 6th). Possible Abuse, not really, just super bardish class.


Despite my extreme skepticism, I could not find any issues Realms-wise (beyond those outlined above). Most prcs seem designed with 2 prerequisites that limit the level, IE- High Skill ranks in 1 skill AND BAB or High Skill ranks in 1 skill AND Spellcasting Requirements. I would still go through my splatbooks and check those for possible abuses before I let a feat like that in my campaign, also make note that any abuse of Perform to enter a prc doubles its utility for a bard as it grants earlier access to songs.

Technik

PS- Not renaming the feat to someting besides "Skill Focus" opens another can of worms in and of itself. If you can use the feat to gain 2 ranks in a required skill for a prc, plus bypass the requirement of needing skill focus in the first place, you have gained a lot of ground. This is handy for Loremaster or Archmage, both of whom have a Skill Focus requirement AND a High Skill requirement of the same skill focus is need in. Have to point out that you would need to take Skill Focus twice in either of those cases, 2 feats, 2 levels early, too much of a hit for Archmage, but possibly worth it for Loremaster.

 

[jmucchiello]

I am ready at this point to concede that, yes, a prestige class that has a single "IT" skill requirement, used simply as an artificial level requirement, with no other balanced skill, feat, or BAB requirements, can be broken by Skill Focus.

But I still maintain that's a problem with the design and balance of the PrC, not Skill Focus. I'd like to see you come around to an agreement on that point.

Well, I'm not sure that I can. As I said above, I think violating the max ranks rule is equivalent to a feat that grants +1 BAB. As long as there is no other way to gain ranks in skills besides skill points, it is a perfect way to design a PrC. You can make a Druid/Ranger exclusive PrC by requiring lots of Animal Empathy. Or you can make a wide open PrC by make Craft (any) the IT skill. It is very flexible and accurate by the book. It's your feat that throws a monkey wrench into the gearworks.

In my increasingly late next book I have a methodolgy that grants ranks in a skill but it also changes that max rank formula to compensate. Thus: You gain one rank in the skill, it become a class skill for all of your classes. Max ranks for that skill becomes character level + 2 from now on. Does not stack with itself.

I also don't find the "lost feat" a valid argument since some PrCs use Skill Focus (x) as a "penalty" prerequisite. But your version of Skill Focus turns it into a benefit (covering one requirement and lowering another). From the writer's point of view requiring Skill Focus (x) shows an increased devotion to skill x to the point that you would spend a precious feat to get a cheap bonus to it. Allowing Skill Focus to apply ranks removes this concept of "spending a feat to show devotion" and replaces it with "spending a feat to kill two birds with one stone." (I'm also kind of torn about Skill Focus being raised to +3 in 3.5 as I assume it will be.)

I think I'm rambling. Hope that made sense.

 

[Psion]

Well, I'm not sure that I can. As I said above, I think violating the max ranks rule is equivalent to a feat that grants +1 BAB. As long as there is no other way to gain ranks in skills besides skill points, it is a perfect way to design a PrC. You can make a Druid/Ranger exclusive PrC by requiring lots of Animal Empathy.

The advantage of doing it this way is that it makes prestige classes designed this way much more flexible. By basing prerequisites on abilities that are an outgrowth of class (class abilities and skills being two), you make it more possible that your PrC can be used with something else.

A great example of this is many of the "new core class" books. Some people (me included) are a little adverse to new core classes unless the core class is VERY generic and flexible. But well written example of such books write the prestige class so that other, conceptually similar classes can apply.

By the same token, it makes it possible for new core classes to be plugged into existing PrCs, such as using a witch or shaman to slot into the above alluded to "animal empathy" class.

In essence, this is "object oriented" game design.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

As long as there is no other way to gain ranks in skills besides skill points, it is a perfect way to design a PrC. You can make a Druid/Ranger exclusive PrC by requiring lots of Animal Empathy.

Except that, according to the DMG, it is also a tenet of PrC design not to design exclusively for class. But we're on the same page here, really; I also think it's neat to design with an eye to exclusive skills and such.

I just don't agree that you can design your prestige class, apply a list of mediocre entry requirements, then go back at the last minute, stick in a single skill requirement to put the throttle on character level entry, and call that "game balance."

I also don't find the "lost feat" a valid argument since some PrCs use Skill Focus (x) as a "penalty" prerequisite.

Skill Focus (+2) is a poorly written feat. That some PrC designers choose to use it as a "penalty feat" is not high praise.

I suppose I'd have to say that my reading of the DMG section goes the opposite of the way you guys are interpreting it. I don't see it as justifying "balance" by requiring certain skill ranks; rather, I interpret it to mean that IF the skill requirements are high, THEN the abilities can be better.

That just doesn't change my focus of using the skill (and other) requirements as a way to FLAVOR the class, rather than simply as the primary mechanism to balance it-- and especially not if you are simply using a single skill as a shorthand version of saying, "You must be character level X to take this class..." (also verboten).


Wulf