Heroes of the Fallen Lands - Feat Preview

[Xeterog]

Shows a new feat called Superior Will. Basically, it gives you a +2 feat bonus to Will in Heroic, +3 at Paragon and +4 at Epic. Not only that, if you are dazed or stunned you can make a save for that at the start of your turn, even if the condition doesn't normally allow a save.

Now that is a COOL feat!

hmm. all solos (and most elites) should have that feat..

 

[Thanlis]

That it requires Cha/Wis 15 doesn't make any sense.

"You've already got a good Will defense, so here's a feat to make it better and to get you out of daze/stun. Oh, you PCs with no need for Cha/Wis who have a low Will and would like to improve it? Suck it!"

I keep telling people that high level combat math is designed around the idea that everyone will have at least one low NAD, which means monsters can do enough damage to be threatening, but nobody ever listens.

 

[YRUSirius]

"Don't you dare have an achilles heel, my dear character!"

-YRUSirius

 

[Thanlis]

Mind you, I'm not sure that's good design, because clearly people hate having that flaw and they hate it when the monsters hit more often than they do. Asymmetrical play isn't always satisfying. But I've always been pretty sure it's the intent.

 

[YRUSirius]

Every hero should have a weakness - everything else is boring.

-YRUSirius

 

[Aegeri]

Mind you, I'm not sure that's good design, because clearly people hate having that flaw and they hate it when the monsters hit more often than they do. Asymmetrical play isn't always satisfying. But I've always been pretty sure it's the intent.

Having a weakness is fine. I can accept that. I'm not so sure I like the concept some PCs are hit automatically on one of their NADs. It basically starts enforcing a kind of game that plays a bit like chess. Where you're trying to get each monster against the PC with the defense weakest to it. In some ways this sort of metagaming can make sense, a canny creature like an Ultrodaemon for example will be able to pick out the weak willed of a group so it explains itself in the context of the encounter. But other times it just doesn't really sit that right, like with epic level - albeit still largely mindless - horrors like abominations and undead.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Indeed!

Compare it to Martial Resolve, an Epic feat that has a more onerous requirement (Wis 15 and martial class and trained in Endurance) yet grants less than half the benefit (saves against dazed/stunned/others at start of turn, but can't save out of an "until end of turn" effect... and no bonus to Will).

Or Indomitable Will, an Epic feat that has no requirement to take, but only grants a +2 Will and a +2 to saves against dazed/stunned/dominated... so it doesn't give you more saves against d/s, just improves your chances of saving... and of course doens't let you save out of "until end of turn" effects.

I would say Superior Will blows those two feats out of the water, even with the Cha/Wis 15 requirement.

Indomitable will didn't give anything if you took robust defenses... a pretty bad feat.. but it has no reqs.

So is it powercreep? Maybe. But its requiirement of charisma/wisdom 15+ make it so that it is actually only strictly better for those who invest into a stat. Which makes this feat ok for me.

 

[DEFCON 1]

In some ways this sort of metagaming can make sense, a canny creature like an Ultrodaemon for example will be able to pick out the weak willed of a group so it explains itself in the context of the encounter. But other times it just doesn't really sit that right, like with epic level - albeit still largely mindless - horrors like abominations and undead.

Well, that's a problem with the DM then, not the system. If the DM always manages to have encounters that include monsters that attack specific defenses, and those monsters always seem to attack those PCs who are weakest in those defenses (even if the monsters theoretically should have no way of knowing which attacks/defenses line up with each other)... then it's the DM's issue, not the games.

Don't blame the game because its system is not so closed up that it can't be exploited by bad DMs. If we wanted the games that balanced... then every single attack and defense would be within 3 points of each other every single time at every single level and successfully hitting right around that mythical 70%. But where's the fun in that?

 

[RigaMortus2]

The Prereqs just seem backwards to me. You need a 15 in either Wis or Cha, so right there, that character already has at least a +2 to will from attribute bonus alone.

The character who needs this feat is the one that doesn't have Wis or Cha as a prime or secondary stat, like the Fighter for example (traditionally low Will saves/defenses).

Seems backwards to me...

 

[tbarrie]

Or Indomitable Will, an Epic feat that has no requirement to take, but only grants a +2 Will and a +2 to saves against dazed/stunned/dominated... so it doesn't give you more saves against d/s, just improves your chances of saving... and of course doens't let you save out of "until end of turn" effects.

I would say Superior Will blows those two feats out of the water, even with the Cha/Wis 15 requirement.

So you would argue that this "Superior Will" is superior to the other Will feats?

That must be a mistake.

Mind you, I'm not sure that's good design, because clearly people hate having that flaw...

I was briefly tempted to break out the "M" word, but to be more civil (and, well, accurate) I'll just say that only some people hate having a crappy NAD. Personally, one crappy defense is often important to my character concept. If I'm playing a Big Guy, then I want my Fortitude to absolutely dwarf my Reflexes. If I'm going for an acrobatic Rogue, then I probably want the opposite.

The Prereqs just seem backwards to me. You need a 15 in either Wis or Cha, so right there, that character already has at least a +2 to will from attribute bonus alone.

The character who needs this feat is the one that doesn't have Wis or Cha as a prime or secondary stat, like the Fighter for example (traditionally low Will saves/defenses).

The Fighter does use Wisdom as a secondary stat.

More importantly, there's nothing wrong with Feats designed to let a player have their character be really good in one specialized area if that's what they want. I rather suspect other feats will be available to let players patch up their weak points.