Hidden = Invis???

[dr_nukem]

I know I've seen this one before...

Out of curiousity, how do you guys handle hidden characters? My DM is having serious doubts about whether Hide is equivalent to Invisible.

Hidden = 100% Concealment = 50% miss chance
Invisibility = 100% concealment = 50% miss chance.

So, the question becomes, what's the difference?

Invis grants a +2 to attack and the defender is denied their dex bonus. Does a hidden character get he same bonus?

S&S outlines the ability to "sneak up" on someone and thus get a sneak attack. The example does not specifically mention receiving the +2 bonus to attack, but I assume this is the case.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Songwind]

Hiding is NOT invisibility...

I think the big difference between hidden (via the hide skill) and invisibility, is that once you look in a specific place for someone who is hidden (say, lurking in the shadows) you're going to see that they're there by the time you're in melee range. Exceptions would of course be Hide in Plain Sight, etc.

Hide is useful for sneaking up, and for keeping out of sight of archers, but have a little reality check. If you are looking into a shadowy corner 5' away, and there's nothing there but shadows, you're going to see there's someone there, even if you can't tell who it is. If it's dark everywhere, you're dealing with a whole different set of circumstances due to the darkness.

I do think that hidden is as good as invisible with regards to ranged attacks, though.

Invisibility's advantages are: 1) no need to have anything to hide in/behind, and 2) you basically have an infinitely high Hide roll for people doing spot checks.

 

[dr_nukem]

Re: Hiding is NOT invisibility...

Invisibility's advantages are: 1) no need to have anything to hide in/behind, and 2) you basically have an infinitely high Hide roll for people doing spot checks.

"Infinitely"?? I don't think so.

SRD: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/srdskillsii.rtf

"A Spot check result of greater than 20 can generally let the character become aware of an invisible creature near the character (though the character can't actually see it)."

20 really isn't all that high...

Other than that, I agree with most of your comments. Normal hidding simply reduces the likelyhood that you will be spotted before you can take advantage of your situation. However, with HiPS, you *could* hide in that shadowy corner and NEVER be noticed (failing an opposed spot check that is).

Does a hidden PC get a +2 bonus to attacking his target? Is the target denied his dex bonus? Does the hidden PC effective have 100% concealment?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Re: Re: Hiding is NOT invisibility...

Here are my thoughts on it:

Does a hidden PC get a +2 bonus to attacking his target? Is the target denied his dex bonus? Does the hidden PC effective have 100% concealment?

Yes to all of these. Hiding is a very advantageous skill, but it and invisibility each have their own drawbacks.

[color=sky blue]Invisibility[/color]: +2 bonus to attacks, target denied dex, 100% concealment. Counters: Spells (such as See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge), Listen Check (partial--can know the square of your opponent to attack them with a 50% miss chance, but you're still defenseless against the invisible creature's attacks). Access: Spells, potions, wands, spell-like abilities.

Hiding: +2 bonus to attacks, target denied dex, 100% concealment. Counters: Spot check, Listen check (partial--see above), lack of objects to hide behind. Access: high Hide skill, available as a class skill to only select classes and monsters.

Note that the access to these abilities is very different, and that the counters are different as well, though the effect is generally the same.

 

[dr_nukem]

I agree compleltely.

Now, can anyone help with some specific page references from any of the source books? My DM would like some "proof".

 

[Henrix]

I do not think that a hidden character gets +2 to it's attack roll.
The +2 is a special circumstance bonus which applies only to invisible attackers (PHB p.132, table 8-8).
Obviously, being invisible has advantages when you attack, as you do not have to take care to keep out of sight of the opponent.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I agree compleltely.

Now, can anyone help with some specific page references from any of the source books? My DM would like some "proof".

Here's a line from the expanded D&D Glossary:

invisible: Visually undetectable. Invisible creatures gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and negate Dexterity
bonuses to their opponents’ AC. Invisibility typically results from spells, magic items, magical effects, incorporeality, or innate abilities.

I'd say a hidden PC is visually undetectable, wouldn't you? I took a peek in the DMG and PH, but couldn't find anything more concrete than that...

 

[dr_nukem]

I'd say a hidden PC is visually undetectable, wouldn't you? I took a peek in the DMG and PH, but couldn't find anything more concrete than that...

That's the crazy thing, there isn't a clear cut rule on this anywhere that I can find. Heck, even Song and Silence doesn't explicitly state it...but it comes a bit closer.

"...you can sneak up and attack before he or she sees you." p. 37

So basically you catch you opponent unaware. Still though, does not being seen ("before he or she sees you") grant you a +2 to your attack? For that matter, is your opponent denied their dex bonus?

Sayeth my DM:
"It does not say anywhere in the description that the attack is a Sneak Attack. I know it is implied but...the attacker is not Invisible, only hiding. Why would target be denied their Dex (assuming they are already in combat)??"

He's got a point. I'd really like to go back to him with a specific quote/page, but I don't think there is one.

 

[Henrix]

Ah, now, there's a good question.

(I still do not think that you should get +2 to hit when you're hiding, as I said above.)


See the basic description of armour class, PHB p.119, Dexterity Modifier:

If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus on AC. (If you don’t have a Dexterity bonus, nothing happens.) You lose your Dexterity bonus when, for example, an invisible opponent attacks you, you’re hanging on for dear life to the face of a crumbling cliff high above a river of lava, or you’re caught flat-footed at the beginning of a combat.

Hmm, of course it does not specifically say anything about a hiding character. But the "can't react to a blow" indicates that to use dex bonus you have to be aware of the specific blow.
That's the best I can do for now.

 

[Voadam]

dissent

I don't think hiding is the equivalent of invisibility rules wise.

Just using the glossary quote above hiding is not listed as one of the common means of becoming invisible.

With invisibility you can walk up and swing your warhammer and unless he makes his spot DC 20 he won't know its coming. With hide you are hidden behind a box, or a bush or a tree, etc. If you rush out and attack, you are no longer hidden.

The rules give specific effects for invisibility. Hiding is considered concealed which gives similar advantages but I don't believe there is any reason to say the rules gives hide all the benefits of invisibility.