Hide and Mv Silently skills are no more!

[Aaron2]

A truely Epic Rogue should be able to tiptoe past an Earth Elemental.

Probably. However, this can just as easily be done by changing Tremorsense and leaving Hide and Move Silently as seperate skills. Right now, Tremorsense can detect a creature even if it is lying there dead. That's certainly more difficult a task than any tiptoeing rogue.

A case can certainly be made for the advantages of fewer, broader skill but this is a design descision that and not a clear cut case of better versus worse. Actually, I'd argue the opposite; that some skills should be split apart. For example, if I want to be a social rogue, I get the most bang for my buck with just one skill: Diplomacy. Add Bluff, Sense Motive and, maybe, Gather Information, and you can be a maxed social rogue using only half of your normal skill points.


Aaron

 

[Xeriar]

I'm doing something similar with my 2d10 reconstruction. Acrobatics, Athletics, Etiquette and some others replace a larger set of skills.

 

[Al]

He did -- Tremorsense, Blindsense, Scent.

A truely Epic Rogue should be able to tiptoe past an Earth Elemental.

-- N

But arguing that Hide is useless at high levels because of Tremorsense, Blindsense and Scent is tantamount to arguing that sneak attack is useless because of undead, blast spells are useless because of golems, enchantments are useless because of undead, vermin and golems, social skills and useless because of mindless foes etc. Just because a subset of enemies encountered have circumventable counter-measures (Boots of Levitation, low level illusions, alchemical scent-breakers etc.) doesn't mean that the ability is entirely useless!

 

[dvvega]

One of my groups had toyed with this concept approximately 2 years ago (give or take a month or so).

Phase 1:
---------
We had a Stealth Skill (Hide/Move Silently rolled into one) but did not replace Spot/Listen as it would indicate how Stealth was detected.

Problems:
1) Rogues ended up with too many extra points and suddenly were outlcassing Bards in social skills and getting more in Use Magic Device (completly replacing bards). This obviously wasn't good since Bards were a campaign available option - but why choose it if you could be a Rogue.
2) How do you sense the Stealthy? You use your best skill in Spot/Listen. Thus members of the party maxed out a single skill (Spot or Listen) and we essentially had 2 members with Spot and 2 with Listen maxed out. Essentially Stealth was useless.
3) Reduced cross-class skill division. Wizards who wanted a bit of stealth could now focus on one single skill and not 2 to become stealthy.

Phase 2:
---------
Okay so let's roll Spot/Listen into one skill (Perception) to simply have a counter skill to Stealth.

Problems:
1) Rogues had even more skill points.
2) Even more reduction in cross-skill division.

Phase 3:
---------
Make both Stealth and Perception cross-class for everyone.

Problems:
1) Brings all skill discrepencies into line, however this would be the same if we had Hide/Move Silently/Listen/Spot in the first place.

Phase 4:
---------
Give up. Why force people to buy a skill they may not want in the first place. A bard might want a high listen (to hear music/changes in voice etc) but wouldn't care less for Spot. So rolling Listen/Spot into one was not valid.

Additionally the rogue hiding in the corner shouldn't be detected by Listen. So having Stealth but seperate Listen/Spot would have hindered him.

Now the issues raised by Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight etc.

Shouldn't some creatures be able to bypass your skills and abilities? Undead by pass the Sneak Attack of a Rogue, Constructs the Improved Criticals of a Fighter, Spell Resistant monsters the Spells of Wizards/Clerics, so why nerf them in the first place?

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

Am I the only one who's getting annoyed by all of this skill merging occurring? There are a lot of skills for a reason. Characters are supposed to be diverse. PCs are supposed to be good at some things and not good at others, it's as simple as that. A cat burglar isn't going to be adept at picking pockets or opening locks or gifting people, so don't expect the rogue to take all of the skills associated with rogue.

 

[DreamChaser]

I believe the phrase

A truely Epic Rogue should be able to tiptoe past an Earth Elemental.

sums up the basic motivation for skill combining. Generally a player or DM feels that some aspect of some character or NPC they have made has been limited by some other aspect of the game. A sorcerer's is upset that he has so few skill points left over when he maxes the 3 skills he needs (Conc, Know (Arc), Spellcraft) that he can't have any social skills. A rogue's player is annoyed that he can't be a master bluffer and a master thief because his Int is only 13.

Rather than looking for solutions within the current rules (such as not maxing out every skill), it is easy to think of changing the rules. I for one, like things as they are.

DC

P.S. Your epic rogue should be an epic user of magical devices and should be able to use Fly or Levitate or Spider Climb or Ethereal Jaunt whenever he/she wants. And since a wand of such spells are a pittance to an epic character, there is no reason he/she wouldn't have a bunch of them in his/her equipment list.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Me, I use all of the regular skills. However, secretly (behind the almighty DM Screen), I average Spot & Listen into Perception, and average Move Silently & Hide into Stealth. Sometimes, it is obvious whether or not you should use Spot, Hide, etc. In those cases, I use those skills. For example, trying to guess where an invisible creature is should be Listen vs. Move Silently. Where it is not obvious, it's Stealth vs. Perception all the way.

Descriptively, if you have a higher Spot and the creature has a higher Move Silently, I am liable to say you saw something. The game effect is the same, and you still need two skills to excel on either side of the field, but it's easier to adjudicate on the fly.

RC

 

[CombatWombat51]

I used "Stealth" for about half a session before my players and I agreed that it sucked.

Eagles have good vision, but average hearing. Hiding is easier in the dark or with camoflague, but not moving silently. Spotting an owl in flight is no problem, but hearing one is quite tough. Noticing a vital disk on a cluttered desk is difficult, but hearing it is impossible.

There were just too many reasons why they should be seperate YMMV

 

[Cyberzombie]

Rather than looking for solutions within the current rules (such as not maxing out every skill), it is easy to think of changing the rules. I for one, like things as they are.

Then why are you even IN this forum? If you don't like house rules, that's all fine and good, but saying so does nothing to add to any discussion in here. If you like everything the way it is, try the next forum up.

 

[DreamChaser]

Then why are you even IN this forum? If you don't like house rules, that's all fine and good, but saying so does nothing to add to any discussion in here. If you like everything the way it is, try the next forum up.

I'm all for house rules. I was simply pointing out that a house rule should be based on more than a feeling of "I'm too limited" but more a feeling of "there is something I want to do that isn't covered in the rules as they stand." or "The rules as they stand do a poor job of representing X"

Combining skills is very clearly the "too limited" option since a combined Stealth or Perception skill is both changing something already covered and taking the skills further from reality rather than closer to it.