Hide in plain sight question

[geezerjoe]

A character in our group has this supernatural ability from the ShadowDancer prestige class. The way he's been allowed to play the ability seems to make it more akin to perpetual invisibility than hiding, and in many ways I can see flaws with his thoughts on the ability, but in a few ways I can agree with him. So ... any help you might give me would be appriciated. (Note: In some ways this really isn't my problem, I'm not the current DM but feel like I need to help him (the DM) out as I have more experience.)

Some problems have already been dealt with ... for instance, hiding was being used basically as a free action. That has ended.

But the SD insists that if there is ANY shadow that he can hide within it. For example, the party approached a blighted out section of fields that was little more than sand just before high noon. The SD insisted that he would be able to hide in the shadow of one of his party members ... even if it were ten square inches. I found this funny and couldn't keep from laughing (though I didn't want too ... it really helps to have a perpetually invisible rogue in the party but some things go too far ) The DM said "No ... I don't think so". I've tried to find info supporting both DM and SD but haven't found much at all on hiding. Any suggestions?

Also ... I see this as an eventual problem. Next level, the SD gets a shadow companion and is suggesting that he will be able to hide within/beind it. I can't see a problem there but it feels ... abusive?!? wrong?!? and I know it's going to lead to other problems eventually ... such as shadow jumping between shadow creatures and such.

Any way, every week that I can keep this DM from chunking the shield is another week I get to play in a pretty good game vs dming a lousy one

thanks in advance

Joe Too Old

 

[Wippit Guud]

Yes, he can hide in someone's shadow, if the shadow is big enough. So, anytime after 10am, he's out of luck usually, givin angle of sunlight.

Yes, he can hide inside a shadow companion, making pepetual saves vs strength drain every round (and I'd add a -10 circomstance bonus to the save for being completely engulphed rather than touched)

But then, I'm evil.

 

[geezerjoe]

yup ... that's the issue ... wether or not the shadow has to be as big as he is or not ... logic says Of Course! ... but it is a supernatural ability in a fantasy world and "it doesn't SAY that!"

anyway, I really just want backup for the DM's decision ... if he decides to use it that is

thanks

Joe Too Old

 

[Wippit Guud]

Nowhere in the hide skill does it say the shadow has to be big enough, either. It's an implied definition.

Hide in Plain Sight: Shadowdancers can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as they are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, shadowdancers can hide themselves from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

The supernatural ability is being able to do it while being watched, and not having to be actually in the shadow, just within 10ft. But as it 'uses the hide skill', it's still limited by how big a shadow you need.

 

[geezerjoe]

The supernatural ability is being able to do it while being watched, and not having to be actually in the shadow, just within 10ft. But as it 'uses the hide skill', it's still limited by how big a shadow you need.

That's what I was missing but didn't know how to say. Ungh.

Thanks man

Joe2Old

 

[Arravis]

Just because you can attempt to hide in a 10" shadow... doesn't mean you will. Seems fairly difficult to me, possible though since he is a shadowdancer (keeping in mind that a normal rogue wouldn't even get a chance to attempt it). I'd give the player near-epic circumstantial minus to his Hide check. Perhaps a -40 or so... a shadowdancer can still attempt to do so, but it requires hiding a large human body in a 10" area. Anyway, keep in mind that the power doesn't turn you invisible/semi-transparent, etc... (such a thing would be described) it only allows you to use a perfectly mundane and normal skill in circumstances you normally couldn't. Your actual ability to hide isn't changed, only the ability to attempt to do so. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Wippit Guud]

Also remember, -10 to hide if you move, so they target player has to stay still.

 

[Antikinesis]

Geezerjoe:

The Hide in Plain Sight description explicitly states that the character must be within 10 feet of "some sort of shadow". There are no size requirements. It's magic, so forget about "real-world" limitations.

A Shadow is incorporeal, so I wouldn't expect it to cast a shadow. I wouldn't allow the HIPS ability to apply hiding in/under/behind a Shadow Companion.

Hiding isn't a free action, it's done as a part of movement.

Wippit:

I couldn't disagree with you more. If there is a shadow within 10 feet, a shadow-dancer can use HIPS.

A Shadow Companion would NOT drain its master. Get real.

There is no "implied definition" that the shadow must meet size requirements. The description of HIPS explicitly states the requirements. 10 feet. Some sort of shadow. There it is.

It also explicitly states that the shadow-dancer doesn't need anything to hide behind, which is another aspect of the supernatural ability. Again, no size requirement on the shadow.

I don't know where you're getting the idea of "-10 to hide if you move". A hidden character can move at half speed without penalty. He can move at full speed with a -5 penalty.

Arravis:

I also disagree with you. You are inventing penalties that make the HIPS ability worthless.


As usual, my musings are IMO.

-AK

 

[Savage Wombat]

Didn't somebody post a revised Shadowdancer that clarifies these questions? I ask because I may have use for it in a future game.

 

[Arravis]

Antikinesis, are you saying that a Shadowdancer ignores penalties and modifiers to Hide? I don't see anywhere in the description that even implies that? I do see in the description of the skills and in the skills section that there are a number of circumstantial modifiers that can be used on any skill, including Hide. A Shadowdancer's Hide ability isn't any better then anyone else, simply the instances of how and when they can hide. I'd like you to please clarify your position on this, other then to say "it makes it useless" (there's a Shadowdancer in the group I've been DMing for over the past 2 years and she does more then well with her class and abilities).