Hide in shadows/Hide in Plain sight

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

As a DM I'm rather realistic with the hide skill. The PHB states you need cover or concealment to hide unless you distract or one of several other ways to hide.

Where it gets interesting is 'how much' shadow does one need to hide. Is the shadow in a 10 x 10 room with a torch enough to allow someone to hide? (the person I hade the debate with says yes) Because yes of course in 'any' room due to furniture or people in it, there will always be 'some' shadow if due to nothing less than the flickering of the torch.

My friend being a shadowdancer states if there is any shadow in the room (other than his own) he can magically disappear and be hidden.

I have issue with this. Hide in plain sight simply allows him to hide in shadow available even if being observed. If there arent 'dark' shadows....or sufficient shadows to cover his person, I dont feel one can hide. (with or without hide in plain sight)

By my friend's definition if a room is lit and has no shadows he cant use hide in plain sight. However if there is even 1 shadow, he can. Seems an 'all or nothing' kind of definition.

As a DM I feel to use hide (whether HIPS or not) there has to be a sufficient amount of shadow and it must be fairly dark shadow. (not like the little bit of shadow I get in the afternoon when the sun hits furniture in my apartment) And I also feel it must be at least enough shadow to cover roughly the size of the person trying to hide. (meaning at least medium sized or thereabouts if you are medium sized--yes you could hunch 'some')

Thoughts?

 

[Abraxas]

Well, for HiPS info there are a number of threads you can check out around here. (They actually seem to be on the rise) In the meantime

Hide in plain sight simply allows him to hide in shadow available even if being observed. If there arent 'dark' shadows....or sufficient shadows to cover his person, I dont feel one can hide. (with or without hide in plain sight)

Actually, the ability says

From the SRD
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

The SD doesn't need anything to hide behind and doesn't actually have to be in the shadow.

Its an on/off effect - are there shadows within 10 ft?
Yes - HiPS works
No - HiPS doesn't work

As a DM I feel to use hide (whether HIPS or not) there has to be a sufficient amount of shadow and it must be fairly dark shadow. (not like the little bit of shadow I get in the afternoon when the sun hits furniture in my apartment) And I also feel it must be at least enough shadow to cover roughly the size of the person trying to hide. (meaning at least medium sized or thereabouts if you are medium sized--yes you could hunch 'some')

As DM you can rule as you like - the ability, as described however, does not put a limitation on the amount or depth of shadows required - but you should try to come to a happy medium with the player. A torch lit room with people and furniture probably should provide enough shadow for the ability to work, I'd even allow it to work in a well lit room with a large table/bed/desk/etc (and a large shadow under said piece of furniture). That being said, the room I'm sitting in now has multiple light sources and no real shadows that i can even see so I wouldn't allow it to work in here and in game I probably wouldn't allow the ability to work once the SD gets more than 10 feet inside the brightly lit portion of the various light spells.

Imparing the ability to only work when there are enough shadows to hide in even if you didn't have the ability is pretty extreme IMO. YMMV.

 

[crater]

I mostly agree with Abraxus; the SD doesnt need anything to hide behind (ie. any real cover or concealment). If you visualize the Shadowdancer actually melding with the shadows you could be justified in ruling that the shadows have to be at least his size. Some people would even say that the SD actually has to hide in the shadow itself which would also support your reasoning, but most people seem to disagree. I wouldnt be too hard on the SD though; with no sneak attack progression, Use Magic Device or spells, and with lower skill levels, they might need all the edge they can get.

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

"A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

So HIPS allows one to hide in shadows while being observed 'and' fit into the shadows and be hidden when maybe it's the shadow being cast by a small chair?

Supernatural ability or not, this just seems 'waaaaay' weird to me.

This is a tough one for me because without talking to the person who actually wrote the SD prestige class it's hard to know if they meant for the purpose of this SU ability to be one that allows a SD to hide in nearly any shadow within 10' (even if it is a chair and not even close to the size of the actual person hiding in it) OR if it was put in to allow a SD to hide without extra hassle even if being observed but that it must be enough shadow to normally hide in and roughly the size of the person hiding.

Sounds like a good question for clarification for the Sage.

 

[Camarath]

So HIPS allows one to hide in shadows while being observed 'and' fit into the shadows and be hidden when maybe it's the shadow being cast by a small chair?

I see nothing in HIPS ability that requires the Shadowdancer to actually be in a shadow while hiding. I believe you are assuming that the Shadowdancer somehow hides within the shadow while using HIPS. I do not believe that the ability actually says this.

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

I see nothing in HIPS ability that requires the Shadowdancer to actually be in a shadow while hiding. I believe you are assuming that the Shadowdancer somehow hides within the shadow while using HIPS. I do not believe that the ability actually says this.

You are correct, but I also know hide !=invisibility. They are distinctly different.

Giving the rogue the ability to completely vanish as if invisible in thin air if within 10' of a shadow (even if they are still right under my nose) is waaaaay powerful.

I still feel the problem is that the ability as written allows for a lot of loopholes and not enough clarification about what is actually happening. Is the SD really just disappearing as if hidden/invis and doesnt even more into the shadows within 10'?

What about in broad daylight (not noon so the sun isnt directly overhead--which means even in broad daylight there are some shadows about), in a forest with light vegetation, can a SD just move along 'invis'/hidden right up to the bad guy 50' away with only an opposed spot roll to see him? Even if that vegetation wouldnt normally provide enough cover/concealment to do a regular hide check? (we'll say it's really light vegetation)

Heck they should have just called HIPS, invisibility and been done with it. If that's what it is, it would have made understanding this ability much easier. (something along the lines of, 'like the spell invisibility')

 

[Camarath]

Is the SD really just disappearing as if hidden/invis and doesnt even more into the shadows within 10'?

Yes, I believe so.

Heck they should have just called HIPS, invisibility and been done with it. If that's what it is, it would have made understanding this ability much easier. (something along the lines of, 'like the spell invisibility')

Invisible creatures have a +20 bouns on Hide checks (+40 if immobile). HIPS does not grant that bonus meaning it is much easier to non-magically spot a creature using HIPS that an Invisible creature.

 

[crater]

I see nothing in HIPS ability that requires the Shadowdancer to actually be in a shadow while hiding.

You are right, there isnt, at least nothing directly saying that. But there is this bit, which could potentially put a spanner in the works:

"She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

...Odd wording. If she didnt have to hide in a shadow in the first place, why even mention it?

 

[Abraxas]

If she didnt have to hide in a shadow in the first place, why even mention it?

So she doesn't wear a candle on her head, enabling her to hide anywhere anytime

It is simply a mechanical limitation on the ability.

 

[rushlight]

After numerous problems with this class, I've pretty much just removed it from my game. Several of my players have had argument after arguement over this ability and the Shadow Jump ability.

The player in question made the arguement (continously) that there are always shadows, no matter what. Since the rules don't define how big of a shadow is required, a shadow the size of a dime is always possible unless you are in a room lit from all sides, even from below. Thus he should always be able to hide or jump around.

While it's true that if you look hard enough you can find a sliver of a shadow somewhere, I thought that was streching the ability somewhat.