Hide in shadows/Hide in Plain sight

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

Exactly....

It seems it is an ability and PrC that sees a lot of abuse by people I see play it. Unless it's noon, there is always some kind of shadow and I've heard players claim that they can hide in plain sight.

And the way it's written would support that idea (any sort of shadow within 10')

Balance wise and when I think of it in terms of physics it doesnt make sense. Maybe part of my hard time with HIPS and hide skill in general is the time I spent in active duty military service. I was trained and very skilled at stepping into a forest and literally disappearing. However if there are no shadows to hide in....or they are not dark enough to actually conceal, anyone looking about 'will' see you. (or vegetation of some kind)

I've seen players start out in shadows, hide and then say they creep up to the bad guy. Well often times there is a light source or sources and little to no shadows. Yet with HIPS or even regular hide they claim they can creep up right on top of the person to deliver a sneak attack.

It seems often the people I see play Shadowdancer and even regular 'hide', that it is some mystical skill that allows them to turn invisible, run around with little or no cover/concealment and then get right up on top of people.

 

[Dyir]

One of my players had the Hide In Plain Sight ability and I basically treat it as a invisibility-like effect. His entire character concept revolves around his ability to sneak around, and compared to the power level of his fellow characters (a twinked-out paladin and druid), he's actually on relatively even terms. I really just let him use Hide whenever he wants, and don't worry about the nearby shadow part of it. Visually, I describe it like a ninja in most anime shows: one second the guy's just standing there, the next he blurs into invisibility.

 

[The Souljourner]

The ability is Supernatural physics doesn't even come into the equation! The ability is defined as being magical.

There's a huge difference between the regular Hide and Hide in Plain Sight. Regular hide *requires* cover or concealment. If you lose cover or concealment, then you are no longer hiding... you're standing out in the open. That being said, some leniency with Hide must be given, or the skill quickly becomes useless.

I think, when creeping up on someone, your hide skill should let you get past small patches of light without being seen by your target. You know how to move and when to move in order to go from shadow to shadow without being seen inbetween. Any wahoo in a black jumpsuit can hide in a dark shadow... it takes skill to do move when it's not that dark and/or you need to get past some light areas where guys could potentially see you.

Shadowdancers are completely different.... their magical ability to hide even when they have no right to be able to suggests to me that they should be able to hide pretty much whenever they want. I do think you should impose some kind of restriction on the size of the shadow, since you're right about the whole "there's always shadows" bit. I'd say a normal sized chair wouldn't be enough shadow, but the shadow under a breakfast table would be enough. It's kind of a judgement call... but it needs to be clearly defined before the player with the shadowdancer ever needs to use the ability.

Communication is everything in D&D... if you think a player is doing something he shouldn't be able to do - tell him.... something like this:

Player: I hide in these shadows.
DM: (rolls d20) Ok.
Player: I sneak up to the guard by the door.
DM: (rolls) Ok, he doesn't seem to see you.
Player: (kills guard) I sneak across the room to the other guard.
DM: Well, due to your skill at hiding, you realize you probably aren't going to be able to make it across the well-lit room and stay hidden, it's just too well lit.
Player: Damn... ok, I'll shoot him with my crossbow, then.

I really think DMs need to spell out how they handle things like Hide etc. before a campaign starts, to prevent just these kinds of arguments in a game. If you tell everyone that you're going straight by the book and you *require* cover or concealment the *entire* time you're hiding, then they'll know what to expect and can't be pissed when you tell them they can't sneak across the well-lit room.

-The Souljourner

 

[Gog]

Exactly....
<SNIP>
Balance wise and when I think of it in terms of physics it doesnt make sense. Maybe part of my hard time with HIPS and hide skill in general is the time I spent in active duty military service. I was trained and very skilled at stepping into a forest and literally disappearing. However if there are no shadows to hide in....or they are not dark enough to actually conceal, anyone looking about 'will' see you. (or vegetation of some kind)
<SNIP>

So I assume that you ran across a lot of flying dragons, and fireball casting elves while in the military?

D&D ain't reality so don't try to understand it like it was.

 

[crater]

So she doesn't wear a candle on her head, enabling her to hide anywhere anytime

Unofficial statistics show that 27% of all Shadowdancer fatalities are directly caused by head-mounted naked flames.

 

[Abraxas]

Unofficial statistics show that 27% of all Shadowdancer fatalities are directly caused by head-mounted naked flames.

Only in poorly ventilated caverns and when said shadowdancer is not carrying the recommended safety canary. Of course, the pain and humiliation of self combusting shadowdancers (prior to the union voted recall of the original HiPS ability - page 39, paragraph 4, line 6 of the Shadowdancer's Supernatural Ability By-laws) did enable a number of enterprising clerics to go into business selling continual flame caps . . .

 

[Chroma]

Unless it's noon, there is always some kind of shadow and I've heard players claim that they can hide in plain sight.

Even at noon you can have a shadow... just look under your picnic table!

Would people allow a Shadowdancer to HiPS while standing beside a low stoll at noon on a flat plain because there'd be a trace of shadow under the stool? To stay hidden can he just carry the stool with him? Or how about a parasol?

I'm really curious as to people's thoughts on this, as I have one player guiding their character towards Shadowdancer, and while he's a very reasonable guy, I'd like to have the extent of his options in place before he gets his character there.

I was intending to rule that there had to be a minimun of a 5x5 area of "shadowy illumination" within ten feet to allow HiPS. I visualize it like ability of the shadowy assassin of Ninja Scroll fame.

 

[rushlight]

I suppose here's what I really had a problem with. Because of the whole shadow debate, and the fact that my player claimed that there was always a shadow somewhere he basically read Hide in Plain Sight as: "Permanant Improved Invisiblity" and the whole jumping thing as: "Permanant Dimension Door".

I don't think that is how the designers intended those abilities to work. I tried to reason with him, say that I figured they should only work at night, in shadowy illumination, never in bright light. Arguments insued. Class banned. Problem solved.

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

Exactly why I think I'm having issue with HIPS in particular. Although it isnt 'quite' invisibility it's close enough that we might as well call it that. So HIPS at 1st level in a prestige class (that isnt that tough to qualify for) is giving invisibility activated 'at will' (cuz well there's always some kind of shadow somewhere of some size even if it is the size of a dime).

??????????????????

This just reeks of absurdity both balance wise and otherwise to me.

On the times I've seen it used by a player in a game, they have used it basically to be just like invisibility. They disappear with a 30+ hide skill right in front of someone with little to no shadow. (saying to the DM...well there's some shadows 10' over yonder, even though they arent a 5'x5' square but something much smaller say made by a small chair)

I did send a note into the sage to ask for some clarification, so maybe we'll get some sorta response back in the future. Till then I'm not sure what to do with this PrC and ability (HIPS).

 

[Thanee]

Isn't hide impossible if you are within 10' of a creature?
Hmm... only mentions this with the sniping rule, so I was probably thinking of that...

Also there are usually penalties to the hide check, if you have to move first (-5 to -10, or even -20 when closing in to attack).

Bye
Thanee