D&D 5E Hiding vs Sneaking: A reinterpretation

Garresh

First Post
Since 5e was released, there has been some ongoing confusion as to the nature of hiding. The rules as written make a few key statements:





  • Hiding is an action.
  • You cannot hide while being seen.
  • You cannot hide unless you have at least light obscurement.
  • You cannot hide while making noise.





The thing is, this system in no way clarifies what exactly "sneaking" is. We know how hiding works. You hide behind some form of cover or concealment, and you hide as an action. But with regards to sneaking, there is basically no clear trend as to how it works. As written, it is impossible to sneak behind someone if you don't have some cover, even if they are facing the other direction, because the concept of "direction" doesn't exist. Classic fantasy scenes of slipping behind a guard are impossible. Likewise, guerilla warfare and combat are mechanically impossible, as movement without cover is not adequately defined.


This ambiguity is further amplified because does sneaking require an additional hide action on every turn? If you move around while concealed, is your action spent hiding again, or maintaining stealth? Does a rogue thief have to spend their action hiding, then sneak at half speed to get advantage, lowering their sneak speed to a mere 15 feet? These questions were never answered, and were intentionally left vague with a handwaving of "ask your DM". But if the DM and players have no concept of what the intent was to begin with, its hard to make any accurate judgments. As a result of all this, pretty much every table runs these mechanics drastically differently, to the point that a single skill(and classes that utilize that skill better) can fluctuate in power wildly.


So I'd like to put forward a loose reinterpretation and clarification of how these mechanics work, with the intention of not directly contradicting RAW in any way, but still allowing fun and interesting gameplay. Here are the new rules:


Hiding: An action which is taken to transition you from "Observed" to "Hidden". Hiding requires at least some concealment, and you cannot hide while directly seen.


Moving while Hidden: While "Hidden", you can move at normal speed without needing to use your action to hide again. Every round that you move while hidden, you must make another Stealth roll. If you use actions or bonus actions as movements, you only need to make the roll once for that round. Once you are hidden, you can move without requiring concealment or cover so long as you and the people you are hiding from are not engaged in combat. The assumption is you are moving while they are looking the other way. However, this may be subject to(and is designed to be) subject to additional restrictions depending on circumstances. If two guards are facing each other having a conversation, your DM may rule that you cannot sneak without concealment. A crowd of NPCs may provide concealment, but not if you're dressed differently. Regardless, the base function of "sneaking" is that you CAN sneak without needing concealment, without using an action, so long as you are not in combat.


Moving while Hidden in Combat: In combat, you can move at normal speed while hidden, as a move action. However, if at any point you lose concealment to the target, you are immediately "observed" and cannot must take the Hide action before you can resume sneaking again.


[New Action] Roll Between Cover: As an action(or bonus action for rogues with Cunning Action), you may move a distance up to half your movement speed(rounded down) without needing to maintain concealment, so long as you end the roll with partial concealment or cover to the target. If you have not yet moved that round, you will need to roll a Stealth check, but this is the same roll used for moving while hidden, which only needs to be rolled once per turn.


[New Restriction] Attacking While Hidden In Combat: If you attempt to attack from concealment, while you are hidden, you do not benefit from the Hidden status if you were last seen at your current location. Essentially, you cannot keep hiding behind a tree firing crossbow bolts at an enemy and expect them not to catch on. You can't even do it once if they saw you hide there. However, you may hide behind a thick tree, climb up 30 feet, and then peer out and fire down to benefit from the Hidden trait for that attack. Or you could hide between a hedge row, and sneak along the outside before popping your head up some 20-30 feet away to benefit from hidden.


Conclusion: Other than the "Roll Between Cover" action and the restriction on attacking while hidden, everything here seems to be loosely suggested by the current stealth rules. Furthermore, these changes codify a more consistent concept of stealth, which prevents the "whack a mole" abuse seen in some games, and the "I move 15 feet every round" stealth rules in other games. Out of combat, stealth is significantly easier, because the people you are hiding from are not particularly aware. But in combat, you can still hide or sneak so long as you don't mind spending an action AND a move to set up a hidden attack. The opportunity cost is high of course, but it still feels reasonable.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

wwanno

First Post
I would not "assume" that the enemies are turned the other side (in order to move while in hiding with no concealment). I would rather ask the DM if they are turned or not, because the assumption could be wrong or the DM could simply ask for the PC to spend more movement in order to stay away from the enemy sight.

Anyway, while your rules might work, I wouldn't use them...too heavy for my games

Inviato dal mio ASUS_Z00AD utilizzando Tapatalk
 


Garresh

First Post
Fair points, but I've occassionally butt heads with intelligent DMs I respect because of miscommunication. These rules should always be superceded by DM fiat and common sense. They are just guidelines so there is some common ground on what the "standard" is. If the guard is facing towards you, no amount of waiting will allow you to sneak without cover. And so on.
 

aco175

Legend
I don't have a problem with expanding the rules to clear things up that are overlooked or if your game needs them to be more clearly explained. Right not in my game the issue has not come up as much or I make up something on the spot due to circumstance. It has not led to any problems, so I do not want to add more things.

As far as sneaking goes, I thought that moving while hidden is in fact sneaking. The Thievery check is to move silently and stay hidden.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Hiding: An action which is taken to transition you from "Observed" to "Hidden". Hiding requires at least some concealment, and you cannot hide while directly seen.


Moving while Hidden: While "Hidden", you can move at normal speed without needing to use your action to hide again. Every round that you move while hidden, you must make another Stealth roll. If you use actions or bonus actions as movements, you only need to make the roll once for that round. Once you are hidden, you can move without requiring concealment or cover so long as you and the people you are hiding from are not engaged in combat. The assumption is you are moving while they are looking the other way. However, this may be subject to(and is designed to be) subject to additional restrictions depending on circumstances. If two guards are facing each other having a conversation, your DM may rule that you cannot sneak without concealment. A crowd of NPCs may provide concealment, but not if you're dressed differently. Regardless, the base function of "sneaking" is that you CAN sneak without needing concealment, without using an action, so long as you are not in combat.


Moving while Hidden in Combat: In combat, you can move at normal speed while hidden, as a move action. However, if at any point you lose concealment to the target, you are immediately "observed" and cannot must take the Hide action before you can resume sneaking again.


[New Action] Roll Between Cover: As an action(or bonus action for rogues with Cunning Action), you may move a distance up to half your movement speed(rounded down) without needing to maintain concealment, so long as you end the roll with partial concealment or cover to the target. If you have not yet moved that round, you will need to roll a Stealth check, but this is the same roll used for moving while hidden, which only needs to be rolled once per turn.


[New Restriction] Attacking While Hidden In Combat: If you attempt to attack from concealment, while you are hidden, you do not benefit from the Hidden status if you were last seen at your current location. Essentially, you cannot keep hiding behind a tree firing crossbow bolts at an enemy and expect them not to catch on. You can't even do it once if they saw you hide there. However, you may hide behind a thick tree, climb up 30 feet, and then peer out and fire down to benefit from the Hidden trait for that attack. Or you could hide between a hedge row, and sneak along the outside before popping your head up some 20-30 feet away to benefit from hidden.
Those seem pretty reasonable to me. And I agree that the stealth rules are fuzzy enough that it can be nice to layout to your players how you will run things in general.

The only thing I wouldn't go with is the assumption that people out of combat are not paying attention. If you're interested in that kind of thing you might check out something I did a while ago:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?492003-Stealth-house-rule
 

Garresh

First Post
Haha. I like that system. Pretty much a simplified conversion of the guard AI from the Thief series. I'm not sure most people would want to run that, but I'd enjoy playing in your games.
 

The thing is, this system in no way clarifies what exactly "sneaking" is. We know how hiding works. You hide behind some form of cover or concealment, and you hide as an action. But with regards to sneaking, there is basically no clear trend as to how it works. As written, it is impossible to sneak behind someone if you don't have some cover, even if they are facing the other direction, because the concept of "direction" doesn't exist.
First, 5e doesn't assuming miniatures in any of the rules. So facing using logic.

As a point of fact, the Basic Rules say:
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, 50 if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

Emphasis added.
So, yes, you can sneak up behind monsters.
And you can dash from cover to cover, as long as the creature doesn't see you when you are moving between terrain.


Reading through your suggested rules, I would also suggest learning the terminology and rules of 5th edition before making new rules.

"Concealment" does not exist in 5e. Neither does "partial concealment". The term is "obscured". Furthermore, your rules that hiding requires "at least some concealment" suggests any obfuscation of vision allows hiding. This means racial abilities, like the wood elf's Mask of the Wild and the halfling's Naturally Stealthy now confer no benefit.

Your rule defaults to permission. "Once you are hidden, you can move without requiring concealment or cover so long as you and the people you are hiding from are not engaged in combat." And then includes a provision that the DM can add other restrictions. But, generally, 5e does the reverse where the DM grants permission rather than takes it away. Your rules force the DM into an adversarial position where they have to take away an ability from the PC.

Moving in combat. There is no such thing as a "move action" in 5e. Your rules here also prevent "sneaking" as you describe earlier, because if at any time you lose "concealment" (which, again, does not exist) you are observed.
This also includes the statement:
and cannot must take the Hide action before you can resume sneaking again.
These rules also lead to the odd situation where a creature is looking directly at where you're hiding and sees you leave, but you maintain being hidden since you end your turn under different cover. Which is absurd, and the kind of situation the Stealth section in the PHB was written to avoid. It's advice because no matter how carefully you write the rules, it creates absurd situations where stealth is equated with skill based invisibility.
Stealth is one of those things that just requires DM adjudication and a degree of logic.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
An interesting, albeit rules heavy interpretation to solve a problem that some are having. Unfortunately for the OP, this interpretation (which is really a house-rule) isn't going to solve any problems, because you still have to convince the DM to use it. Stealth was written vague to allow DMs to interpret it as they see fit for their game, so DMs need to be clear with their players about it during session 0 or in the campaign handout.

In my games, I don't worry about Stealth rolls while out of combat. You roll when I (the DM) tell you to make a check, and that will be at the critical moment where you can't change anything before being spotted (because I've known players that have rolled bad, then claimed they were going to attempt to re-hide). Facing is determined entirely by Theater of the Mind, so I simply inform the players where the guards are generally looking. If there's a decent chance they could glance over (for direct line of sight), the Stealth check is at Disadvantage. I've even used Intelligence/Stealth before to time mobile guards as they make their rounds, because that made more sense. In combat is mostly by the book, but I might allow a check at Disadvantage to sneak up to an enemy in melee if they are distracted (likely by an ally in melee).
 


Remove ads

Top