High Initiative?

[IceFractal]

Actually, the raw modifiers have no effect on randomness at all. What matters is the gap between a high and low modifier.

If a high initiative is only 5 points higher than a low one, then initiative is fairly random. If a high initiative is 20 points higher than a low one, then initiative is mostly predictable. This applies equally whether an average initiative is +3 or +300.

 

[Voss]

Hmm. I find the happy medium to be between 5 and 15. 20 is spitting on the d20 a bit too much.

More particularly, I like they way the hit vs AC numbers are looking. The pit fiend and ice archon look like they can hit themselves around a 13+. Thats a fairly decent place for the numbers to fall on a d20 roll - roughly a 40% hit chance. Not quite half the time, but not the absurd 17+ that high levels in Saga produced (20%).

Unfortunately, these init numbers are producing a huge variance against the minimum. +9 vs +21 is a 60% discrepency, and thats reaching the point where you usually fail. Thats bad, because it means investment in the skill (or the dex attribute) is more or less required to be competitive.

As for experience and initiative... eh. I think of it as somewhat similar to people's reaction time while driving. Most people are fairly horrible at it. Even people who have been driving for 30 years don't react significantly more quickly to a changing traffic light. It isn't necessarily bad that initiative is reflecting levels, but the giant gap between skilled and unskilled is bad.

Perception vs Stealth is going to be another bad one, and it looks like were already going to have a problem with it. Just from what we've seen, you can make a first level elf character with a +14 to perception checks. Against a potential +0 stealth check...
very bad, especially if it can be turned around to +14 stealth vs +0 perception. Someone wins in 70% of encounters, which means that perception is another must-have skill.

Edit- sorta scooped!

 

[AZRogue]

If Initiative DOES end up mechanically similar to the Skill system, which it seems to be so far, then against equal level opponents the Initiative would be mostly random, with only ability modifiers causing a range difference. If Improved Initiative gives +5, just like being Trained would a Skill, then that lessens the randomness a bit.

10th level creatures, no ability score modifier, would have an Initiative of +5. An average 10th level with a +2 modifier would have Initiative +7. And the same character with Improved Initiative would have Initiative +12. I wouldn't mind seeing this, as the range isn't that bad at all. Make them level 20 and the Initiatives would be, respectively, +10, +12, and +17. Not counting modifiers improving as the creature leveled.

Or, the whole thing could be different and we find out later because I have no idea, really.

 

[Sitara]

Perhaps some powers are activated by niitiative. For instance, if you init is the highest you activate the "Blistering Stryke" powaH!. Or if your init is the low, you can activate the "Uncanny motion" power and move your init up.

Or something

 

[Kaisoku]

If Initiative DOES end up mechanically similar to the Skill system, which it seems to be so far, then against equal level opponents the Initiative would be mostly random, with only ability modifiers causing a range difference. If Improved Initiative gives +5, just like being Trained would a Skill, then that lessens the randomness a bit.

10th level creatures, no ability score modifier, would have an Initiative of +5. An average 10th level with a +2 modifier would have Initiative +7. And the same character with Improved Initiative would have Initiative +12. I wouldn't mind seeing this, as the range isn't that bad at all. Make them level 20 and the Initiatives would be, respectively, +10, +12, and +17. Not counting modifiers improving as the creature leveled.

Or, the whole thing could be different and we find out later because I have no idea, really.

This is exactly it. Note that the Pit Fiend summons lower level monsters as part of his abilities. Their initiative would be lower by virtue of experience compared to the players facing the Pit Fiend. I think this was done intentionally.

Also, note that they've specified that monsters will be useable for greater level ranges. So initiatives will be varying between players and monsters from that factor as well.


IMO, changing Initative this way fits better in the system they seem to be making.

 

[Kaisoku]

As for experience and initiative... eh. I think of it as somewhat similar to people's reaction time while driving. Most people are fairly horrible at it. Even people who have been driving for 30 years don't react significantly more quickly to a changing traffic light. It isn't necessarily bad that initiative is reflecting levels, but the giant gap between skilled and unskilled is bad.

This isn't that good of analogy. If you want to compare to driving, compare it to reaction time off the line for a drag race, where it's important and competitive that they react quickly.

It feels appropriate that someone who's been driving for years will have inherently gained a better reaction time for starting in a drag race than someone who's just starting to race.


Initiative is just a game term though, and doesn't convert over to the "real world" in the game in any way. "+20 to Initiative" doesn't mean anything in how far you can move, or how much time you have in a round, or how many attacks you do. It's simply a comparitive figure to determine "who goes first".

Having an Epic person have a difference of 15 points to "going first" over a person who's just started fighting feels okay by me.

Paragon levels will only have a +10 modifier over a first timer, which is only 50% of a d20 roll. He can still roll a 1-10 while a first timer can still roll an 11-20. This gap can be closed fairly quickly with a Trained bonus and an ability modifier being higher...

A Fast level 1 person (focused on being quick) still has a decent chance against even a 20th level Paragon mediocre speed character.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

When comparing the Ice Archon's +21 init and a 10-11 Dex character of equal level's +9 init, it's important to note that the Ice Archon has a 20 Dex to start with.

It's basically the same advantage a similar monster would have over similar characters in 3.x, with the exception that Improved Initiative (or whatever it is) provides an extra +1 bonus. The only difference between the 3.x equivalents and the system they appear to be using in 4e is that more experienced creatures will usually act before relatively inexperienced creatures (though not always - the Ice Archon only has a +9 advantage over a level 1 character who has 20 Dex and Improved Init, which isn't completely insurmountable.)

~LS