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High-level combats

Rolzup

First Post
I'm a goodly way from needing to worry about this, but I've been a'wondering:

Experienced DMs! How do you keep high-level combats (say, 12th level and up) interesting, dangerous, and...um...non-tedious?

The sheer amount of dice rolling involved would seem to almost inevitably bog the game down, for one thing.

Any secrets/wisdom/experiences to recount?

Rolzup
 

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the Jester

Legend
High-level combats either last only a few rounds or last forever. IME, the main difference is, how many high-powered bad guys are there?

If there's only one, it's a quick battle one way or another.

If there are many, it lasts a long time.

If there are lots of mooks, odds are the fight's quick.

What keeps it interesting? I think a combo of interesting foes, using good tactics, using the environment to spice things up, and lots of instant-death effects... so the pcs keep the sense of fear that makes the adrenaline pump.

YMMV; I would bet good money that it really depends on the players and dm in question, and the style they prefer. My players like a good mix of rock-hard battle, wacky situations and roleplaying, with (I'd say) about a 2/3 emphasis on combat situations (or maybe that's just how it's been lately...)
 

EricNoah

Adventurer
A good initiative proceedure (like using initiative cards, having a player act as "initiative captain" to gather and arrange the PCs' cards, DM calling out not only who is up but who is "on deck") is a good start to speeding up high-level combat. Also, anything your players can do to pre-calculate their spell effects and DCs -- using a spell spreadsheet or other type of cheat sheet -- helps a lot.
 

Schmoe

Adventurer
I echo what Eric said about initiative cards. I've used the system for the last two years, and it really helps out a lot.

The simple fact of the matter is that combat takes time, especially with large numbers of combatants, their level notwithstanding. I try to find everything I can to make combat move swiftly. With 6 PC's and one NPC, the last combat between the party, a Hezrou cleric, a Vrock, an Imp, and 4 Gladiatrixes (from Legions of Hell) took a total of about 7 rounds and just over an hour in play time. To keep combats moving quickly, here are some things that I would suggest:

- Use initiative cards, or another fast and easy system
- Have players look up spells/abilities prior to use
- Be familiar with monster abilities prior to combat
- Have a rough idea of monster tactics prior to combat
- Be willing to make on-the-fly rulings. Don't quibble over details if you're having a hard time coming up with the rule.
- Don't correct small mistakes retroactively, just remember for the next time they come up. This applies to both DM and player mistakes.
- Read the combat rules inside and out until you are familiar with them
- Keep combat descriptions brief unless describing a dramatic event. Do NOT eliminate descriptions entirely, just don't go overboard for a simple swing of the sword.

To keep combats deadly, well, I continually need to scale back my encounters to avoid a TPK, so I'm not sure why you're having a problem with this. Just use a variety of challenging opponents, and use multiple opponents. A variety of challenges is important, so that the party can't get comfortable in one mode of operation. They should always be kept on their toes. Try mixing it up with one big encounter one day, many smaller encounters the next. One big opponent one battle, many lesser opponents the next. Use opponent spellcasters. Use heavy hitters. Use the full spectrum of creatures available to you, with appropriate encounter levels, and you shouldn't have a problem. In order to get the most out of your monsters, spend some time out of game thinking about the most devestating tactics available them, and then use them!

To keep combats interesting, here is what I've found works:

- Vary the battlefield. Interesting terrain makes even hum-drum encounters exciting. Not every battle needs to be fought on a cliff face over a chasm filled with flesh-seeking worms, but there's a big difference between an empty hallway and a hallway with arches every 20', torches in sconces that can be torn off the wall and used as weapons, as well as a section of rubble that fell from the collapsing roof.
- Try to include challenges for all of the PC's. Not every encounter, mind you, but in general. Include some wimpy opponents along with the big bad demon in order to harass the weaker PC's. Include hard-to-reach opponents for the archers and spell-casters to deal with. Include heavy melee hitters for the fighters to deal with.
- Try to make encounters relevant to the plot. Whether the plot is "clear and loot the dungeon" or "save the princess from her half-fiend uncle," relevant encounters are more exciting. "Survive this!" can sometimes be relevant to the story, too :)
- Describe the action. When a PC kills a foe, cleaves through another, and downs a third with his last attack, spend a few seconds to give such a remarkable feat some attention.
- Describe the opponents. Instead of "the orc barbarian moves here and attacks", try "the scarred orc moves closer, his muscles rippling. He howls with rage and tries to take your head off."
- Not every combat needs to push the party to the limits. It's ok for the PC's to flex their muscles occasionally, just as long as the combat is brief. Your 8th level party may get quite a bit of satisfaction from laying down the smack on three ogres. Your 18th level party will get very bored when they have to lay the smack down on three separate waves of 32 ogres each.

Hmm, that's it for now. It's worked for me, hope it works for you.
 


S'mon

Legend
Good advice above. Having a player handle the Initiative roster is vital IMO.

From a DM's POV, in 3e I like to keep the enemy as simple as possible, then play them to the hilt. Piling on exotic abilities is a waste of time & energy IMO. The main BBEG IMC, the Cambion Harecules from Lost City of Gaxmoor has a few tricks - he can fly, he can go ethereal for 1 minute 1/day, he has a big sword that does huge damage and causes fear on a hit. My players are terrified of him - of course, he's 8 levels higher than they are... (thanks, Ernie & Luke) :)
 

Inconsequenti-AL

Breaks Games
S'mon said:
Good advice above. Having a player handle the Initiative roster is vital IMO.

Do you get the players to take care of the monsters as well?

As you said, simple is definitely good. A bbeg, with a couple of funky powers and a really nasty sword is great... Personally, I'm quite a fan of Blackguards.

How exactly do people work initiative cards - like a supermarket queue? Do you get 1 for each group of monsters?
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
As the number of special abilities and spells, at a character's desposal becomes unwieldy, I write the information for likely spells and powers on 3 x 5 cards. This way, I don't have to search through a rulebook in mid-combat. I also encourage my spell-slingers to do the same.
 

Telperion

First Post
Very good advice above.

I have also seen players create two kinds of sheets. The first one is for encounters that they see coming, and can prepare for. These sheets are usually covered with well thought out battle formations, buffs and just about everything that the party can throw together in 1 - 2 rounds before entering combat. My players tend to have spell-casting capacity (either trough multiclassing or prestige classes) so most of them spend the first round pulling weapons and equipment that they know they are going to need. The next one goes with a frenzied chanting of spells and activation of items.

The players have also drawn up sheets for what to do when they can't prepare for a battle. Obviously this is much harder, but they have come up with stuff that makes them a whole lot harder to kill if they can survive the Surprise Round.

I demand that players have their next action ready when their turn comes up. If not, then they stand around in a momentary shock of confusion (they don't lose Dexterity, though) and lose their actions. It's harsh, but players usually smarten up very quickly after losing one round worth of actions. While we were still playing with 3.0 rules there was the Refocus full-round action, but since that has been removed...no more of that if you can't decide what your character does when it's your turn...

I like to keep combat fairly short, because it really can take hours otherwise, and also because combat isn't the main focus of my campaign. With that in mind most engagements are over by round 5, one way or another.
  • Characters win
  • Characters retreat and seek reinforcements
  • Opponents retreat and seek reinforcements
  • Opponents win

That's usually how it goes, and I have rarely seen any significant variation. The one thing that most players seem to forget is that a severely pressed opponent may very well surrender or flee if given half a chance. It's also why we don't have any barbarians, frenzied berserkers or that sort of people in the group. Bad for everyone, IME.
 

Calico_Jack73

First Post
the Jester said:
I think a combo of interesting foes, using good tactics, using the environment to spice things up, and lots of instant-death effects... so the pcs keep the sense of fear that makes the adrenaline pump.

Anyone who has ever played through Dragon Mountain should recognise what good tactics can do. I've been scared of Kobolds ever since.
 

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