High-Level Play: Nightmare for DMs?
Dthamilaye
First Post
Sorry for the long post. Read it if you are interested of my rulings for some (IMHO) borken abilities and rules.
**************
I have been a DM for a group of players that have advanced from ECL 4 (1st level) to ECL 23 (20th to 22nd lvl) during the last 2,5 years.
I have noticed that there are some stuff that really makes the game borken at higher levels. Spells are one problem and quite high stat bonuses are another.
I usually will let players use something during the current adventure. When the adventure ends and the players level, I will nerf the problems, if there were any. (The players level at the end of each adventure, we don't keep any track of killed monsters vs gained exp. I just assign enough exp to get to next level with a buffer to cast xp taking spells like Commune).
1) Assisting a melee to hit. Party fights _very_ tough monster (Miska from Rod of 7 parts, modified to very nasty demon). Caster summons a bunch of celestial badgers around Miska and then the badgers proceed to hit AC 10. Most succeed and for each success, the next melee hit gains +2. The whole situation was unbelievably funny
. I loved the idea of a horde of celestial badgers harassing a huge spiderlike monstrous demon for the most important hit.
Although, I won't approve that anymore. The monsters that assist someone to hit must themselves succeed at hitting the AC of the target (Around 54 in the above case).
2) Tumble through something with static DC 15. We started to have large/huge Pit fiends, Balors, solars, planetars, dragons, aboleths, mountain giants, epic monsters, you name it, that were tumbling around. Usually in mid-flight. That just ... was ridiculous. Even our fighter took enough crossclass skills to tumble around (Wearing bracers of armour).
No more. To tumble through occupied space, the DC is 10+the opponents BAB. This way those who have it as class skill still can usually succeed. And the crossclassing tumblers are out of luck (as they should be).
3) Polymorphs, PolyAO, Shapechange.
We have a wizard/EK/Witchhunter/Spellsword/Swashbuckler who is a melee fighter that buffs himself with polymorphs and GMWs etc before fight. He started at level 13 though, as he came to play in the middle of the campaign. Before this, nobody had used any Poly spells. Around lvl 16 or so, I nerfed them as follows:
Alter self: Max stat 15, max natural armour 5
Polymorph: Maximum stat 20, Max natural armour 10
Polymorph any object when used as polymorph: Max stat 30, Max NA 15
Shapechange: Max stat 35, Max NA 20, no regeneration or SR, all special (SU) abilities are totally under my jurisdiction. No beholder main eye, no choker haste etc.
On the other hand, if the caster has higher physical stat than the one he is transforming to, he keeps the original stat.
This way, he needs to use higher level spells to gain the best physical stats when fighting, instead of spammin a 4th level spell to gain 30+ str and 26+ dex with wings etc (Horned Devil).
Polys are very flexible spells as a utility spells. Even with the nerfs, they still are also the best stat buffs. I don't know, what could be done to them so that they would be utilty spells, not stat buffs... removing the stat changing aspect completely might make them too weak.
4) Mordenkainen's Disjunction does not destroy permanent magical items. If the will save is failure, the item stays non-magical for 1day/CL of the MDK. If a charged item (scroll, potion, staff, wand, chime of opening) fails the will save, it is destroyed.
5) Gate. Max HD of the called monster is 25 or CL, whichever is lower. Calling a non-specific creature to fight for 1rnd/CL does not cost XP, although the called creature might not like it. Calling a non-specific creature for bargaining does not cost XP. Calling for a specific creature that has NOT given you a permit to call it whenever you want, costs the 1000 XP. The called creature (if the permit is not given beforehand) gains a will save to resist the Gate (XP is gone anyway).
Gate can be used as attack spell by casting it horizontally under someones feet (non-flying target, of course). This way it gives Ref save but no SR roll.
6) Archmage ability that shapes an area of the a burst/emanation/spread/cone spell. This abilty does NOT function with Antimagic Field or MDK (Mord Disjunc).
7) Fleshshiver spell from PGtF (IIRC). The fort save is done BEFORE the 1 round stun. If save succeeds, no stun. Fanfare from S&S is right out.
8) Natures favour, Natures Avatar, Awaken. No, these spells cannot be cast on a shapechanged or wildshaped person, or any other being that has not been an [animal] type from the birth.
9) Divination spells kinda rule in the epic play too. Mind blank is a standard issue spell on about every caster BBEG.
10) It hasn't become an issue yet, but I belive I would put either SR- or save-chance for thrown Fire Seeds.
11) Spellsword/Spellblade(?), well the +1 enchantment to weapon that, when hold, can absorb a specific targetted spell without any preparation and then cast it as a free action next round to a target of weapon holders choosing.
I removed this totally few weeks ago. Everyone was running around with somekind of a weapon with 'Dispell, Greater' -spellblade on it. No way to dispell anyone thoroughly, only area dispells were effective. I think Ring of spell turning and rod of absorption type items are enough as it is. +1 is a measly price to pay for immunity to targetted greater dispell. It was kind of a 'no-brainer'.
Additionally, high stats really make some effects quite unbalancing. Of course, saves are good etc, but what if the sorcerer and bard (around +13 CHA bonus) take 1 level of Marshall(?) from MinatureHB to give everyone within 60' additional +13 to penetrate SR? Or a few levels of class that gives cha bonus to all saves? The mage above took swashbuckler to get +12 int bonus on damage (in addition to STR), but happily that only works with light weapons, so no PAttack. IMHO, it might be nice if all the classes and PRCs that give stat bonus to something, would give it only 1 point / lvl of the class/prc. Around level 10, the rest could be given. Ie, if someone has cha bonus +15, he would get only +1 to all saves as 1st lvl paladin. Then +2 at 2nd ... +9 at 9th level and then the +15 at 10th level. This way the 1-2 level dips to a class to get stat bonuses to XXX would not be so good choices.
For my next campaign, I'm thinking about dropping whole divination school from magic. There would be few attack spells with save and SR, that could reveal the spells and effects on a target for that round. This kind of spell would be around 7th level. Detect magic might be also around, but maybe as a 4th level spell from universal school, without the 3rd round concentration ability. Analyze dweomer would be 9th level universal spell. That's about it.
Players would need to trust on search for traps, craft/profession to 'feel' out a magic weapon (if it does not glow, etc) and alchemy/profession to check out potions.
Another magic area that might go too is all spells with (teleportation) as type. Players would need to travel, or use the FR Backroads and crossroads type portals. To get to another plane, they would need to gather/buy/find information about possible portals etc.
Well, thanks for the interest.
**************
I have been a DM for a group of players that have advanced from ECL 4 (1st level) to ECL 23 (20th to 22nd lvl) during the last 2,5 years.
I have noticed that there are some stuff that really makes the game borken at higher levels. Spells are one problem and quite high stat bonuses are another.
I usually will let players use something during the current adventure. When the adventure ends and the players level, I will nerf the problems, if there were any. (The players level at the end of each adventure, we don't keep any track of killed monsters vs gained exp. I just assign enough exp to get to next level with a buffer to cast xp taking spells like Commune).
1) Assisting a melee to hit. Party fights _very_ tough monster (Miska from Rod of 7 parts, modified to very nasty demon). Caster summons a bunch of celestial badgers around Miska and then the badgers proceed to hit AC 10. Most succeed and for each success, the next melee hit gains +2. The whole situation was unbelievably funny
. I loved the idea of a horde of celestial badgers harassing a huge spiderlike monstrous demon for the most important hit.Although, I won't approve that anymore. The monsters that assist someone to hit must themselves succeed at hitting the AC of the target (Around 54 in the above case).
2) Tumble through something with static DC 15. We started to have large/huge Pit fiends, Balors, solars, planetars, dragons, aboleths, mountain giants, epic monsters, you name it, that were tumbling around. Usually in mid-flight. That just ... was ridiculous. Even our fighter took enough crossclass skills to tumble around (Wearing bracers of armour).
No more. To tumble through occupied space, the DC is 10+the opponents BAB. This way those who have it as class skill still can usually succeed. And the crossclassing tumblers are out of luck (as they should be).
3) Polymorphs, PolyAO, Shapechange.
We have a wizard/EK/Witchhunter/Spellsword/Swashbuckler who is a melee fighter that buffs himself with polymorphs and GMWs etc before fight. He started at level 13 though, as he came to play in the middle of the campaign. Before this, nobody had used any Poly spells. Around lvl 16 or so, I nerfed them as follows:
Alter self: Max stat 15, max natural armour 5
Polymorph: Maximum stat 20, Max natural armour 10
Polymorph any object when used as polymorph: Max stat 30, Max NA 15
Shapechange: Max stat 35, Max NA 20, no regeneration or SR, all special (SU) abilities are totally under my jurisdiction. No beholder main eye, no choker haste etc.
On the other hand, if the caster has higher physical stat than the one he is transforming to, he keeps the original stat.
This way, he needs to use higher level spells to gain the best physical stats when fighting, instead of spammin a 4th level spell to gain 30+ str and 26+ dex with wings etc (Horned Devil).
Polys are very flexible spells as a utility spells. Even with the nerfs, they still are also the best stat buffs. I don't know, what could be done to them so that they would be utilty spells, not stat buffs... removing the stat changing aspect completely might make them too weak.
4) Mordenkainen's Disjunction does not destroy permanent magical items. If the will save is failure, the item stays non-magical for 1day/CL of the MDK. If a charged item (scroll, potion, staff, wand, chime of opening) fails the will save, it is destroyed.
5) Gate. Max HD of the called monster is 25 or CL, whichever is lower. Calling a non-specific creature to fight for 1rnd/CL does not cost XP, although the called creature might not like it. Calling a non-specific creature for bargaining does not cost XP. Calling for a specific creature that has NOT given you a permit to call it whenever you want, costs the 1000 XP. The called creature (if the permit is not given beforehand) gains a will save to resist the Gate (XP is gone anyway).
Gate can be used as attack spell by casting it horizontally under someones feet (non-flying target, of course). This way it gives Ref save but no SR roll.
6) Archmage ability that shapes an area of the a burst/emanation/spread/cone spell. This abilty does NOT function with Antimagic Field or MDK (Mord Disjunc).
7) Fleshshiver spell from PGtF (IIRC). The fort save is done BEFORE the 1 round stun. If save succeeds, no stun. Fanfare from S&S is right out.
8) Natures favour, Natures Avatar, Awaken. No, these spells cannot be cast on a shapechanged or wildshaped person, or any other being that has not been an [animal] type from the birth.
9) Divination spells kinda rule in the epic play too. Mind blank is a standard issue spell on about every caster BBEG.
10) It hasn't become an issue yet, but I belive I would put either SR- or save-chance for thrown Fire Seeds.
11) Spellsword/Spellblade(?), well the +1 enchantment to weapon that, when hold, can absorb a specific targetted spell without any preparation and then cast it as a free action next round to a target of weapon holders choosing.
I removed this totally few weeks ago. Everyone was running around with somekind of a weapon with 'Dispell, Greater' -spellblade on it. No way to dispell anyone thoroughly, only area dispells were effective. I think Ring of spell turning and rod of absorption type items are enough as it is. +1 is a measly price to pay for immunity to targetted greater dispell. It was kind of a 'no-brainer'.
Additionally, high stats really make some effects quite unbalancing. Of course, saves are good etc, but what if the sorcerer and bard (around +13 CHA bonus) take 1 level of Marshall(?) from MinatureHB to give everyone within 60' additional +13 to penetrate SR? Or a few levels of class that gives cha bonus to all saves? The mage above took swashbuckler to get +12 int bonus on damage (in addition to STR), but happily that only works with light weapons, so no PAttack. IMHO, it might be nice if all the classes and PRCs that give stat bonus to something, would give it only 1 point / lvl of the class/prc. Around level 10, the rest could be given. Ie, if someone has cha bonus +15, he would get only +1 to all saves as 1st lvl paladin. Then +2 at 2nd ... +9 at 9th level and then the +15 at 10th level. This way the 1-2 level dips to a class to get stat bonuses to XXX would not be so good choices.
For my next campaign, I'm thinking about dropping whole divination school from magic. There would be few attack spells with save and SR, that could reveal the spells and effects on a target for that round. This kind of spell would be around 7th level. Detect magic might be also around, but maybe as a 4th level spell from universal school, without the 3rd round concentration ability. Analyze dweomer would be 9th level universal spell. That's about it.
Players would need to trust on search for traps, craft/profession to 'feel' out a magic weapon (if it does not glow, etc) and alchemy/profession to check out potions.
Another magic area that might go too is all spells with (teleportation) as type. Players would need to travel, or use the FR Backroads and crossroads type portals. To get to another plane, they would need to gather/buy/find information about possible portals etc.
Well, thanks for the interest.
Last edited:
Tzarevitch
First Post
The Gate spell is a problem at high level play. The problem is that it can call nearly anything, including the PCs if they happen to not be on their home plane. The only real defense is to have devices like Shifter's Manacles to make sure you can't be gated.
The simple solution I found is to give it a Will save to avoid and SR to negate. This means that while you CAN call powerful outsiders with it, it is suitably difficult to do so. If the creature makes its will save it is not under control or compelled to go through the gate, but it may if it chooses to (the being casting the gate knows that is is not under control). If it passes through the gate of its own free will it is not under control but the one casting the gate may bargain with it if he chooses.
Shapechange is not really a problem. It is powerful and mildly annoying but it is not problematic like Gate. It is basically a souped-up polymorph. The DM just has to plan accordingly and be aware that the PC has it and knows how to use it.
Tzarevitch
The simple solution I found is to give it a Will save to avoid and SR to negate. This means that while you CAN call powerful outsiders with it, it is suitably difficult to do so. If the creature makes its will save it is not under control or compelled to go through the gate, but it may if it chooses to (the being casting the gate knows that is is not under control). If it passes through the gate of its own free will it is not under control but the one casting the gate may bargain with it if he chooses.
Shapechange is not really a problem. It is powerful and mildly annoying but it is not problematic like Gate. It is basically a souped-up polymorph. The DM just has to plan accordingly and be aware that the PC has it and knows how to use it.
Tzarevitch
rushlight
Roll for Initiative!
If the PCs are gated somewhere, they will 1) not be forced to go, but can choose to; 2) if they go, they will not be controlled, and 3) they can leave at will anytime they choose.Tzarevitch said:
They are "unique" beings. There's only one John the 7th level fighter from the wrong side of Greyhawk, or whatever. Why do people totally miss that? I know the text of the spell is long, but are people getting hungry half-way through and wandering off? If you specify exactly who you want the spell to call, then you've chosen a unique being. They choose if they get called. If you choose "a human" then you get a random human - and they are controlled (assuming their HD falls within the parameters set by the spell).
Of course, if someone uses Gate to call "a human" from the material plane (disregarding debates on if humans are in fact "extraplanar") and out of all the humans on the plane the PC got selected... then he's screwed. But that's like a billion to one, or something.
Last edited:
two
First Post
unique schmunique
"Unique" is used in the following sense:
"I gate in Zeus."
"You can't, Zeus is a unique being."
"Why is it unique?"
"Because it's not Joe Zeus, or Shirley Zeus. It's not a Zeus that lived in the past, or might live in the future. It is the one and only Zeus, the only Zeus that ever will be! It's not the Zeus that makes your burrito, nor folds your laundry. That's why."
"I gate in James Spader."
"James Spader is a hack actor of sorts, who worked a lot in the early-mid nineties. Although he is special in his own way, when you boil him down, he's still a mass of fleshy protoplasm -- just another human, as it were. So yeah, gate in James Spader all you want."
"But you just said he was 'special in his own way.' "
"He is special in his own way. Unique, too, given what goes through his head when he looks in the mirror (doubtlessly). But, as creatures go, he's just a human. Many humans exist, have died, will exist in the future, and are even now being born. James Spader is a human, thus not unique as far as creature types go. Now, if James Spader was Zeus, you could not call him."
"And his Hollywood career would have been a lot better too, huh?"
"No doubt."
"Ok. Makes sense."
rushlight said:
"Unique" is used in the following sense:
"I gate in Zeus."
"You can't, Zeus is a unique being."
"Why is it unique?"
"Because it's not Joe Zeus, or Shirley Zeus. It's not a Zeus that lived in the past, or might live in the future. It is the one and only Zeus, the only Zeus that ever will be! It's not the Zeus that makes your burrito, nor folds your laundry. That's why."
"I gate in James Spader."
"James Spader is a hack actor of sorts, who worked a lot in the early-mid nineties. Although he is special in his own way, when you boil him down, he's still a mass of fleshy protoplasm -- just another human, as it were. So yeah, gate in James Spader all you want."
"But you just said he was 'special in his own way.' "
"He is special in his own way. Unique, too, given what goes through his head when he looks in the mirror (doubtlessly). But, as creatures go, he's just a human. Many humans exist, have died, will exist in the future, and are even now being born. James Spader is a human, thus not unique as far as creature types go. Now, if James Spader was Zeus, you could not call him."
"And his Hollywood career would have been a lot better too, huh?"
"No doubt."
"Ok. Makes sense."
kigmatzomat
Hero
two said:
I agree up 'til here. Here's my continuation.
"I gate in James Spader."
"James Spader is a human hack actor of sorts, who worked a lot in the early-mid nineties. It is the one and only James Spader, the only James Spader that ever will be! It's not the James Spader that makes your burrito, nor folds your laundry. You can't gate him in either."
"So I can't gate in humans?"
"Sure you can, you just don't get to pick and choose among those extraplanar humans."
"So I might get James Spader."
"Sure, but only if James Spader is on another plane of existence and then it's a pure luck of the draw. On the plus side, most extra-planar humans are probably tougher than the norm, or much luckier, or incredibly unlucky."
MerakSpielman
First Post
oh, for gods sakes! You're calling an individual creature if you are in some way distinguishing it from all other creatures of its type. I'd let you call and control a "20th level human fighter" but not "Vlad, Hero of the Nine Kingdoms" who happens to be a 20th level human fighter.
Some people in this thread seem to be saying that you can call any human, so long as you dont know its name. That seems completely crazy to me. Better make sure they dont tell you their names when they appear, otherwise they will suddenly be unique creatures and uncontrolled.
The spell itself says you may call a named being, and that you can control it. Dieties and Unique creatures are exceptions to this, as such they are very special creatures indeed. Unique is along the same lines as diety, not along the same lines as 'anything that happens to have a name somewhere, sometime, somehow'.
The spell itself says you may call a named being, and that you can control it. Dieties and Unique creatures are exceptions to this, as such they are very special creatures indeed. Unique is along the same lines as diety, not along the same lines as 'anything that happens to have a name somewhere, sometime, somehow'.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
A solar is unlikely to go down in an encounter appropriate for 17th-level PCs; you'd have a TPK long before the solar died. And if you have to boost encounter levels to "overwhelming" simply to account for gate: It's broken. Period.rushlight said:
No it isn't. The fact that even an encounter of CR = EPL, which is something that a party doesn't even need gate to handle, yields net xp when gate is used means that it's worth using gate even when you don't "have" to! So what if it takes me 44 encounters of CR = EPL to advance a level? For one thing, those encounters will individually take a LOT less time. For another, all boss encounters are written at a CR >> party level, and the party will use gate all the time to trump those. Any spell that lets the party walk through every single boss encounter AND treat CR = EPL encounters as speed bumps is broken.
You need to read the rules, my friend. For one thing, "extraplanar" is a relative type; it simply refers to the fact that you're from a plane different than the one the spellcaster's on when he casts gate.
SRD said:
Second, if you're playing with 3.5 gate, you need to use 3.5 abominations.
From the ELH 3.5 Update booklet, p.11:
Abomination, Anaxim: Construct (Extraplanar, Lawful)
Abomination, Atropal: Undead (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Abomination, Chichimec: Outsider (Air, Evil, Extraplanar)
Abomination, Dream Larva: Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
etc.
If you're not playing by the rules anyway, why bother defending gate out of the box?
It seems that you also should read the Monster Manual.
From the Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities chapter:
Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components).
This is a gross misinterpretation of the spell; again, if you're not playing by the rules, I can see perfectly how you don't see a problem with the spell.Second, you can't just Gate in the bad guy. Unless the bad guy in your campaign is a random "balor" from the lower planes.
It is therefore quite clear that you can call "particular individuals" through the gate, willing or unwilling. The "deities and unique beings" clearly means something else, and in fact must mean something else in order for the spell to be written in a manner that isn't completely self-contradictory (in which case it's broken as written anyway). "Unique beings" is most consistently interpretable as "beings with no other species counterpart." Thus deities, unique dragons like Bahamut and Tiamat, and archfiends. PCs and most NPCs, whether humans, elves, illithids, or gold dragons, are not "unique beings" by this definition. They are, of course, "particular individuals," who can be called through "willing or unwilling."
If, OTOH, you assume that only "a random [being]" is called by gate, then you have drastically altered the spell, which is otherwise known as a house rule or a "nerf." And here I thought you believed that all the core spells were playable out of the box!
I've given you plenty of examples of possible abuses. Here are some actual ones:
1) An NPC halfling rogue armed with a scroll of MDJ stripping away my 21st-level party's buff spells and destroying several valuable items, making them easy prey for the orcs and (3.0) balor I threw at them (a CR 19 encounter), causing two PC deaths, and causing the barbarian player to practically launch himself across the table at me in rage when I told him his +3 green dragon armor had been disenchanted forever.
2) The mind flayer PC in a "play the bad guys" one shot who figured out that astral projection allows you to double your character wealth by creating astral copies and then going back and picking up the physical copies. I hit him with the DM shovel, but still.
3) The wizard player who used shapechange and buffs to turn into a great gold wyrm (prior to the 3.5 errata) and destroy an entire Zhentarim army fielded against him, then shifted into an iron golem, waded through Darkhold's magical defenses, and walked right into the boss encounter by himself (forcing the BBEG to flee his minions in panic) while the rest of the players sat twiddling their thumbs.
It goes on and on. I've never allowed gate as written IMC for this reason. Even with my house rules, the PCs use it on occasion, but only when the situation is truly dire.
Also, to reiterate an earlier post: The DM can make anything work, because the DM can change rules however he wants. If spells like gate work fine in your games, good for you; just don't pretend you're playing by the RAW, because you're not. The point is that the 9th-level spells are not written well to be played out of the box, which is hong's point (however extremely he chooses to make it) to begin with.
Similar Threads
