History, Mythology, Art and RPGs
I haven't read The Riddle of Steel -- I've only read about it -- but I was under the impression that it was fairly involved, and that there was quite a bit to learn about the system before you'd be effective in combat.
Or would a HEMA hobbyist immediately know what tactics to choose?
As long as we're discussing Realistic Combat, I thought I'd link back to an earlier thread on the topic. One anecdote therefrom:
Take for example the case of the duel fought in 1613 between the Earl of Dorset and Lord Edward Bruce. According to the Earl's account, he received a rapier-thrust in the right nipple which passed 'level through my body, and almost to my back.' Seemingly unaffected, the Earl remained engaged in the combat for some time. The duel continued with Dorset going on to lose a finger while attempting to disarm his adversary manually. Locked in close quarters, the two struggling combatants ultimately ran out of breath. According to Dorset's account, they paused briefly to recover, and while catching their wind, considered proposals to release each other's blades. Failing to reach an agreement on exactly how this might be done, the seriously wounded Dorset finally managed to free his blade from his opponent's grasp and ultimately ran Lord Bruce through with two separate thrusts. Although Dorset had received what appears to have been a grievous wound that, in those days, ought to have been mortal, he not only remained active long enough to dispatch his adversary, but without the aid of antibiotics and emergency surgery, also managed to live another thirty-nine years.
Galloglaich
First Post
It really wasn't that complicated, at least not initially. The paradigm of it was a radical departure from most rpgs so that took some doing to get used to, and toward the end they started adding more and more variant rules and stuff, kind of how DnD evolved from 1E to 3.5E
The biggest holdup on it was that they made the magic system too freeform for most people, and the company Driftwood Press which bought the game never finished the redesigned Magic supplement they were supposed to do.
The thing I did is designed for 3.5 OGL, I think it's fairly easy to understand for people who play DnD, though there is still a slight paradigm shift. I started a thread on the most radical aspect of the combat mechanic here.
The designer, Jake Norwood, is one of the top longsword fencers in the world, (though he hasn't done it in a while he's on his second tour in Iraq right now) but by my estimation 95% of the people who played didn't know the first thing about HEMA or any martial art, the logic of the game just happened to be based on HEMA techniques. So they kind of picked it up the way we all picked up the idea of a saving throw or a cure light wounds spell playing DnD.
The HEMA part was pretty easy to pick up. The weirdest aspects of TROS (like the magic system) came from the indy game design scene at the Forge wherin the game incubated.
G.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I was involved in TROS about midway through its life cycle, I wrote the weapons encyclopedia in The Flower of Battle which was the third (?) book for The Riddle of Steel, and part of another book they did. I know Jake Norwood personally and consider him a friend. We've fenced together several times.
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Galloglaich
First Post
Done. Check your spam filters gentlemen. You should be getting an email from drivethroughrpg in the next few minutes.
G.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Also it has to accommodate a running battle with a demon-possessed crossbowman and a magma-spitting rock scorpion over a field of broken basalt and lava geysers, because I just did that last night at fourth freaking level and my players got a real kick out of it.
Galloglaich
First Post
Would you? Because a lot of people wouldn't. Many folks seem to get emotionally invested in this kind of issue for some reason and can be really fanatical about it. A dispassionate assessment would be welcome.
Sounds like a fun session. Done right I'm sure even I'd enjoy it despite my realism loving / low fantasy leanings.
Something we have to keep in mind here is that there ARE different ways to play the game. I think the gripe some people have about ... new developments is that it has become a narrower game that you can only play one way.
If you accept this premise:
If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience. Done right this could be the solid foundation of many different styles of gaming done in all different directions, including your shooting flames or whatever.
..then we are a long way in the direction of being able to realize this one particular type of game which I think a lot of us have been wanting to see since ADnD.
Because maybe I can't pull this off, (I hope I have taken at least a baby step in this direction but that remains to be seen), but I guarantee you somebody could do this, if you defined this as the goal. I don't think very many people have actually tried this in the way your emphasis (and mine) in the above paragraph recommends yet.
G.
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Galloglaich
First Post
I wrote a little blog about art and RPG's at my site here, featuring Albrecht Durer:
codexmartialis.com • View topic - Albrehct Durer
codexmartialis.com • View topic - Albrehct Durer
I'm a big fan of Albrecht Dürer too, but I didn't realize he was such an expert on combat. It's a shame his intricate work doesn't scan and compress well; online examples lose some of the originals' charm.
Another excellent illustrator is Gustave Doré -- from a later era and, I assume, not an expert on hand-to-hand combat. Some of his works are very D&D:
Merlin Advising King Arthur
Orlando Furioso on Griffon, Slaying Serpent (Not quite safe for work...)
Orlando Furioso on Griffon
Galloglaich
First Post
Yes that's rather startling isn't it? One of the many ways European Martial Arts have been kind of hiding in plain sight ... it's very strange to me that in being very interested in both Durer and everything to do with swords I didn't find out he was an accomplished longsword fighter until I was 40 years old....
Its very hard to find good scans of his work online and I'm really not sure why, you can't even find high -res scans of most of those images, the Galloglass one for example the best I could find in several years was that small fuzzy image I posted. I also have bought four expensive Durer art books all of which claim to be 'complete' Durer collections and none of those pictures are in them, though I'm still glad to have them. He was amazingly prolific but seems to be rather badly categoriezed and it's difficult to access his work.
Yes Dore is fantastic, of a later period but the same aesthetic of any Gamer IMO. To me this one of Don Quixote perfectly sums up my ideal DnD night:
(speaking of which Cervantes had a rather amazing D&Dish life full of adventure and mishap, read up on him some day)
Many of Dores contemporaries in the 19th Century were part of the so-called "Orientalist Movement" which also dovetails very well with RPGs IMO due to their attention to technical detail (like weapons and armor which are usually done very accurately) combined with an exhuberant use of color and an almost desperate yearning to fleee the gray world of their Victorian culture and plunge into the exotic vistas and what they thought of as the untamed passions of foreign lands ...
Their repression lead to inspiration. This is one by Ludwig Deutsch is one of my favorites:
I wrote another little blog about Orientalist art and RPGs here:
codexmartialis.com • View topic - Orientalist paintings
G.
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