Hit Points - Why were they designed to be incoherent?

[Aehrlon]

Don't see any argument to rename them. "Hit Points" vs "Toughness points"? We all know you are in trouble when the amount of hits you can take is running low, sounds similar to me.

Indeed; I was making a joke at the end of my original post "as we all know you are in trouble when your TP is running low". In the United States TP is an abbreviation for Toilet Paper (or bathroom tissue). The humor must not have translated, sorry for that.

There is some talk that D&D Next will not grant so copious amounts of hit points at higher levels. That might help with the issue of creating challenges for Epic Level characters that were problematic in earlier editions of the game.

 

[nillic]

I believe you're thinking too hard about this HP concept. Do you pause a video game and wonder why your man in Contra (NES FTW) gets shot, dies, and then suddenly falls out of the sky doing Chuck Norris spin-flips with a new gun, fully recovered and starts shooting people? No, you accept that as part of the game and then keep killing bad guys. I just can't get behind complaints about "realism" or "incoherence" in a game where bat poop can be thrown and turn into a flaming ball of death (It doesn't work, I've tried).

Alternatively, you could implement an alternate HP system similar to what PFRPG introduced recently: where your CON score represents actual physical health and fitness and your HP represent that metaphysical. And you don't actually take physical CON damage until A) you're out of metaphysical HP or B) someone lands a crit (that just bypasses all your luck and training).

In the end, we play games where green people hate short people with beards and pointy eared folks sing to trees and its ok to kill whatever doesn't look "human" and people fly and shoot flames/lightning/acid/whatthehellever all over the place. So if the mechanic isn't interfering with gameplay, I wouldn't philosophize over it's "coherence"

 

[Aehrlon]

Hmm, maybe I am thinking too hard about it though I find your comparison of D&D HP to a video-game odd; apples & oranges to me. To me, D&D is much more than "killing bad guys". Adventure, quests, camaraderie, overcoming obstacles, etc. Also, in my defense, I did write this in an earlier post in this thread RE: Hit Points: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It has worked so far, I don't anticipate D&D Next to do away with them anytime soon."

Maybe complaints of realism & such you mentioned would be better explained as Verisimilitude:
(noun) 1. the appearance or semblance of truth; likelihood; probability: The play lacked verisimilitude.
2. something, as an assertion, having merely the appearance of truth.

I guess believability is something I strive for, as silly as that might seem. Seems like a contradiction, believability in a Fantasy game but I mean, in the scope of the game world. While playing your character, can you picture the action taking place as your DM describes a room or a scene? Can you picture exactly how your character looks, head to toe? As your HP are depleted, can you visualize how your hero might look and react?? As your foe's HP are depleted, can you see that??

I am not familiar with the alternate HP system similar to what PFRPG introduced but I'm curious & will look for that; do you have a link by any chance?

Your third paragraph does a nice job summing up the games we play. My posts are not meant to be about coherence but really more about how HP can make sense as a traditional game mechanic that works well in the New system AND keeps the action rolling. Hope this makes sense.

 

[nillic]

Aehrlon, my apologies for the mis-understanding. My comments were directed at the OP of this thread, I should have made that more clear. They mentioned how video games handle the idea of Hit Points, which is why I made my Contra reference.

As for your desire for some realism and verisimilitude in your games, I think the PFRPG sub-system I mentioned would interest you.

Here is a link to a review of the system:
Robot Viking Analyzing Pathfinder’s Alternate Wounds & Vigor Damage System

As for the actual rules, I can't find them online in any form. But they are printed in Paizo's Ultimate Combate book for Pathfinder RPG

Cheers!

 

[Aehrlon]

Wounds and Vigor
[FONT=&quot]Hit points are an abstraction. When a fighter gains a level, his body does not suddenly become more resistant to damage. A sword’s strike does not suddenly do proportionately less damage. Rather, hit points suggest that the fighter has undergone more training, and while he may have improved his ability to deal with wounds to a small degree, the hit points gained at higher levels reflect less his capacity for physical punishment and more his skill at avoiding hits, his ability to dodge and twist and turn. Each loss of hit points, in this case, suggests that he is becoming progressively less nimble over the course of combat—in other words, that the decreasing hit points are a marker for his [/FONT][FONT=&quot]overall [/FONT][FONT=&quot]endurance and condition. It’s not quite as satisfying, however, to roll a critical hit and then tell a player that his opponent ducked out of the way, but that the sword’s slash made the enemy a little less lucky. This variant system for tracking wounds and vigor should help to remedy that. As with the other systems in this chapter, this system is entirely optional.[/FONT]

Determining Wound Points and Vigor Points
[FONT=&quot]Instead of hit points, creatures using this system have a number of wound points and vigor points. These two replacement scores are kept track of separately, and represent different ways a character handles the damage inf licted on him. The following are descriptions of these scores and how they work within the variant system of damage tracking.[/FONT]

Wound Points
[FONT=&quot]Typically a creature has a number of wound points equal to twice its Constitution score. It also has a wound threshold equal to its Constitution score.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wound points represent the amount of physical punishment a creature can take before it dies. When a creature’s wound points drop to or below its wound threshold, that creature becomes wounded. When a creature is wounded, it gains the staggered condition until it is no longer wounded. Furthermore, when a creature is wounded, if that creature takes any standard or move action on its turn, its remaining wound points are reduced by 1 and it must make a DC 10 Constitution check. If the creature fails that check, it falls unconscious.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When a creature reaches 0 or fewer wound points, it is dead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wound Points and Constitution Damage, Drain, and Penalties[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A creature’s wound points and Constitution score are intrinsically linked. For each point of Constitution damage a creature takes, it loses 2 wound points, but this damage does not affect the creature’s wound threshold. When a creature takes a penalty to its Constitution score or its Constitution is drained, it loses 1 wound point per point of drain or per penalty for the duration of the penalty or drain. A penalty to Constitution or Constitution drain has no effect on the creature’s wound threshold.[/FONT]

Vigor Points
[FONT=&quot]Vigor represents a creature’s ability to avoid the majority of actual physical damage it might take from an attack. When a creature takes damage, the damage typically reduces its vigor points first. Some special attacks either deal wound point damage directly or deal both vigor and wound point damage (see Critical Hits).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Creatures with one or more full Hit Dice or levels gain vigor points. With each level gained or each Hit Die a creature has, it gains a number of vigor points based on its Hit Die type.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Use the creature’s Hit Dice to generate its vigor points, just like you would hit points, but without adding the creature’s Constitution modifier. A creature gains maximum vigor points on its first Hit Die if it comes from a character class level. Creatures whose first full Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from their race roll their Hit Dice to determine their starting vigor points. A creature with less than one Hit Die has no vigor points; it only has wound points. When a creature no longer has any vigor points, any additional damage it takes reduces its wound point total.[/FONT]
Regaining Wound Points and Vigor Points
[FONT=&quot]A creature can regain wound and vigor points in a number of ways, but in general it is easier to regain vigor points.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Healing Spells and Effects[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When casting healing spells or using an ability with a healing effect (such as channeling holy energy on living creatures or the paladin’s lay on hands ability), the creature casting the spell or using the effect must choose whether it wants to heal wound points or vigor points. The creature decides this before casting the spell or using the ability. When that creature decides to heal vigor points, the healing spell or effect acts normally, replenishing a number of vigor points equal to the number of hit points the spell or effect would normally heal. If the creature decides to heal wound points, it heals a number of wound points equal to the number of dice it would normally roll for the healing spell or effect. In the case of effects like the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]heal [/FONT][FONT=&quot]spell, where a spell or effect heals 10 hit points per caster level, the creature heals its caster level in wound points.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For instance, if a 12th-level cleric uses her channel positive energy power to replenish wound points to living creatures, she would typically heal 6 wound points for all living creatures with her channel energy burst. If she casts the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]heal [/FONT][FONT=&quot]spell, she would restore 12 wound points to the creature touched.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rest[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When a creature has a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), that creature regains all its vigor points and 1 wound point. If there is a significant interruption during a rest, the creature regains neither wound points nor vigor points. If a creature undergoes complete bed rest for an entire day, it regains half its level in wound points and all its vigor points.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Restoration and Similar Effects[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When a creature regains Constitution points by way of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]restoration [/FONT][FONT=&quot]spell or a similar effect, that creature regains 2 wound points for every Constitution point regained. Relieving a Constitution penalty or Constitution drain regains any wound points that were lost from that penalty or drain.[/FONT]
Attacks tha t Deal Wound Point Damage
[FONT=&quot]Some attacks can be used to deal wound points damage directly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Critical Hits[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When a creature is subject to a critical hit, the critical hit deals the damage normally, reducing vigor points first, and then reducing wound points when vigor points are gone. It also deals an amount of wound point damage equal to its critical multiplier (for example, 3 wound points for a weapon with a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]×[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 modifier), on top of any wound point damage the creature might take from the critical hit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Negative Energy Damage[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When a creature deals negative energy damage to a creature with a spell or effect, it can choose to deal wound point or vigor point damage (but not both) with the spell or effect. If that creature chooses to deal vigor point damage, the spell or effect deals negative energy damage normally, and that damage reduces vigor points only, even if it deals more damage than the target has vigor points. If the spell or effect deals negative energy damage to wound points directly, it deals an amount of wound point damage equal to the number of dice the creature would roll for that effect; if the effect deals a number of points per caster level (such as the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]harm [/FONT][FONT=&quot]spell), it deals a number of wound points equal to the caster level of the spell.[/FONT]

Other Considerations
[FONT=&quot]The following are a few other considerations to take into account when using the wounds and vigor system.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Temporary Hit Points[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When a creature would normally gain temporary hit points, it gains temporary vigor points instead. When that creature takes damage, it loses these temporary vigor points first. If an attack deals damage to wound points only,these temporary vigor points are not lost.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nonlethal Damage[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When a creature takes nonlethal damage, it takes that damage in vigor points only, even if the attack deals more damage than the creature has vigor points. If the creature has no vigor points (and no temporary vigor points), each time that creature takes damage from an attack that deals nonlethal damage, it takes either 1 wound point of damage, or a number of wound points in damage equal to the attack’s critical hit modifier if the attack is a critical hit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Spells or Effects with Hit Point Triggers[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: When using this system, if a spell or an ability has an effect that occurs when you reduce a creature to 0 or fewer hit points (such as the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]disintegrate [/FONT][FONT=&quot]spell), that effect is instead triggered when a creature is wounded. In the case of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]harm [/FONT][FONT=&quot]spell or a similar effect where a creature cannot be reduced below 1 hit point by the spell or effect, a creature’s wound points cannot be reduced to or below that creature’s wound threshold.[/FONT]

 

[TanisFrey]

I have been playing Hackmaster 5th ed. In your starting hit points are equal to Constitution score plus Race (5 to 10 for most standard races) plus a die based on you class. You only gain a new hit dice every other level. You also, save the die roll because on the level where you do not gain a new hit die, you get to reroll for a higher result. If you reroll is not higher you get to increase you result to the die average unless the original roll was higher.

(This system tries for each level to be about 1/2 of the step up from any edition of D&D.)

The system is very different when it comes to being hit. Every time you take damage you record it as a separate wound. If your remain hip points drop to 0 or less you need to make a roll to remain awake and you will die if you drop to a negative total equal to half you constitution score.

Natural healing occurs for each wound separately. A 1 point wound will heal completely in one day of rest. A 2 point wound will heal to a 1 point wound in 2 days of rest. A 3 point wound will heal to a 2 point wound in 3 days of rest.

When you cast healing spells the caster selects a wound. All the healing will be applied to that wound, any left over will be applied equally to all other wounds. You drink a potion of healing, its healing is spread over all the wounds equally. A healing salve will be applied only to the wound it is used on.