Hits to Kill

[Beholder Bob]

I am thinking of a variant for HP to make combat a bit nastier. Any thoughts or expectations? I know this will make combat more dangerous, but to balance it out, I'd be treating monsters with high damage potential to be higher CRs. My biggest concern is spells inflicting HTK...

HP remains, but it represents being buffeted about, roughed up, and minor bleeding. You regain 1 HP/hr normally. Between 0 to -CON HP, you are staggered. Anything further and you are unconscious / Coma. Once below -CON, you must make a FORT save DC 15 to recover 1 HP each hour (Coma possibility).

Hits to Kill (HTK): this is the nasty damage that spills copious amounts of blood, leaves you limping, really beats the hell out of you. You have 1/2 CON + 1/2 STR + 1/2 base attack. Each size category above medium increases these HTK by 25%, and each drop below medium drops it down 25%. You heal 1 HTK per day, and a healing check result heals 1 HTK per 5 points above 15 result, but requires 4 hours attention and uses 1 application of a healers kit per HTK healed, with a minimum 1 use, even on a failed roll. When a healers kit is used with a healing spell, the heal check gets +1/spell level of the healing spell used.

When you roll damage, there is no +x damage - instead, break the +x damage into d6s or less and roll them (so +8 damage is +d6 & +d2). Rolls above 4 inflict 1 HTK in addition to the HP damage. A roll that hits by more then 4 points inflicts the full amount as HTK. Medium armor provides 2 DR/-, and heavy armor 4 DR/-. DR subtracts HTK first, and then if there is any damage left, it negates HP damage.

Healing spells suffer the same modification to rolls (d8+5 cure light wounds is d8 & d5), and only heals a HTK on a rolls of 5+.

Natural AC: every 3 points gives 1 DR/-.

 

[kitsune9]

I am thinking of a variant for HP to make combat a bit nastier. Any thoughts or expectations? I know this will make combat more dangerous, but to balance it out, I'd be treating monsters with high damage potential to be higher CRs. My biggest concern is spells inflicting HTK...

HP remains, but it represents being buffeted about, roughed up, and minor bleeding. You regain 1 HP/hr normally. Between 0 to -CON HP, you are staggered. Anything further and you are unconscious / Coma. Once below -CON, you must make a FORT save DC 15 to recover 1 HP each hour (Coma possibility).

Hits to Kill (HTK): this is the nasty damage that spills copious amounts of blood, leaves you limping, really beats the hell out of you. You have 1/2 CON + 1/2 STR + 1/2 base attack. Each size category above medium increases these HTK by 25%, and each drop below medium drops it down 25%. You heal 1 HTK per day, and a healing check result heals 1 HTK per 5 points above 15 result, but requires 4 hours attention and uses 1 application of a healers kit per HTK healed, with a minimum 1 use, even on a failed roll. When a healers kit is used with a healing spell, the heal check gets +1/spell level of the healing spell used.

When you roll damage, there is no +x damage - instead, break the +x damage into d6s or less and roll them (so +8 damage is +d6 & +d2). Rolls above 4 inflict 1 HTK in addition to the HP damage. A roll that hits by more then 4 points inflicts the full amount as HTK. Medium armor provides 2 DR/-, and heavy armor 4 DR/-. DR subtracts HTK first, and then if there is any damage left, it negates HP damage.

Healing spells suffer the same modification to rolls (d8+5 cure light wounds is d8 & d5), and only heals a HTK on a rolls of 5+.

Natural AC: every 3 points gives 1 DR/-.

Having a little hard time following this--how about an example of play?

 

[Beholder Bob]

Example: 1st level fighter: S 15, D 13, C 14, I 10, W 8, C 12
chain shirt, shield, longsword
Feats: weapon focus, dodge

Note: light armor so no DR
Attack +4 d8+2 = d6+d2
Base Attack +1
HTK =( ½ STR + ½ CON + ½ Base attack) = 15/2+14/2+1/2 = 15 HTK

AC 17, DR 0, HP 12, 15 HTK

Example: 4th level fighter: S 16, D 13, C 14, I 10, W 8, C 12
MW Full Plate, +1 Shield, +1 Longsword
Feats: weapon focus, dodge, weapon specialize, power attack, cleave

Note: heavy armor so DR 4
Attack +9 d8+6 = d8+d6
Base Attack +4
HTK =( ½ STR + ½ CON + ½ Base attack) = 16/2+14/2+4/2 = 17 HTK

AC 21, DR 4, HP 40, HTK 17

Against an ogre S 21, D 8, C 15, I 6, W 10, C 7
Wearing Hide armor, using greatclub
Feats: toughness, weapon focus

Note, Natural AC = 5, so 1 DR/-, and medium armor 2 DR/-, for 3 DR/-
Attack +8 2d8+17 = 2d8+2d6+1d1
Base Attack +3
HTK =( ½ STR + ½ CON + ½ Base attack) = 21/2+15/2+3/2 = 19.5 – but multiply by 1.25 (due to size) = 24.175, or 24.

AC 16, DR 3, HP 29, HTK 24

The 4th level fighter’s attack requires a natural 7 to hit, and inflicts 1 HTK & 8 HP. On a 12 or higher, he inflicts 8 HTK and 8 HP.

The ogre’s attack requires a 13 to hit, and inflicts about 3 HTK on a normal hit. If he hits with an 18, he inflicts full HTK and HP. On a solid hit, he does about 15 HTK & 15 HP

Now – this makes a simple ogre scary for a 4th level fighter. A single 18 results in serious HTK damage – even with his DR, 14 HTK is more then ½ his total.

**** Now – as mentioned, a higher damage output can put a beastie up the CR chart (a 600 pound creature bulging with muscle should smash (HULK!) his target. His problem is getting a direct hit.

Some thoughts

Creatures that are bigger then 1 size category are scary

Low level creatures retain their threat level longer.

The HTK system critical hits multiply the HP damage, not the HTK.

Combat expertise and fighting defensively are good options.

** This may be too severe, I'm not sure yet.

 

[kitsune9]

Example: 1st level fighter: S 15, D 13, C 14, I 10, W 8, C 12
chain shirt, shield, longsword
Feats: weapon focus, dodge

Note: light armor so no DR
Attack +4 d8+2 = d6+d2
Base Attack +1
HTK =( ½ STR + ½ CON + ½ Base attack) = 15/2+14/2+1/2 = 15 HTK

AC 17, DR 0, HP 12, 15 HTK

Example: 4th level fighter: S 16, D 13, C 14, I 10, W 8, C 12
MW Full Plate, +1 Shield, +1 Longsword
Feats: weapon focus, dodge, weapon specialize, power attack, cleave

Note: heavy armor so DR 4
Attack +9 d8+6 = d8+d6
Base Attack +4
HTK =( ½ STR + ½ CON + ½ Base attack) = 16/2+14/2+4/2 = 17 HTK

AC 21, DR 4, HP 40, HTK 17

Against an ogre S 21, D 8, C 15, I 6, W 10, C 7
Wearing Hide armor, using greatclub
Feats: toughness, weapon focus

Note, Natural AC = 5, so 1 DR/-, and medium armor 2 DR/-, for 3 DR/-
Attack +8 2d8+17 = 2d8+2d6+1d1
Base Attack +3
HTK =( ½ STR + ½ CON + ½ Base attack) = 21/2+15/2+3/2 = 19.5 – but multiply by 1.25 (due to size) = 24.175, or 24.

AC 16, DR 3, HP 29, HTK 24

The 4th level fighter’s attack requires a natural 7 to hit, and inflicts 1 HTK & 8 HP. On a 12 or higher, he inflicts 8 HTK and 8 HP.

The ogre’s attack requires a 13 to hit, and inflicts about 3 HTK on a normal hit. If he hits with an 18, he inflicts full HTK and HP. On a solid hit, he does about 15 HTK & 15 HP

Now – this makes a simple ogre scary for a 4th level fighter. A single 18 results in serious HTK damage – even with his DR, 14 HTK is more then ½ his total.

**** Now – as mentioned, a higher damage output can put a beastie up the CR chart (a 600 pound creature bulging with muscle should smash (HULK!) his target. His problem is getting a direct hit.

Some thoughts

Creatures that are bigger then 1 size category are scary

Low level creatures retain their threat level longer.

The HTK system critical hits multiply the HP damage, not the HTK.

Combat expertise and fighting defensively are good options.

** This may be too severe, I'm not sure yet.

Okay, I get it now. Ouch Bob! This looks brutal at just being able to roll more than 4 needed to hit? Talk about laying the smack-down on people. Playtest it and let us know how it works. Seems like you may have something there for that gritty feel.

 

[thedmstrikes]

Okay, I follow on how many HTK each character can receive and how you accumulate them through a fight, but what happens when the amount accumulated exceeds the amount allowed to the character? You explained the new HP results when they go negative, but what happens when the HTK count is higher than that which is allowed?

I also assume that HTK level is recalculated anytime the numbers it is derived from change (this can get tiresome when buff spells get thrown about in prolonged fights), or did you want to simplify that by making it happen at level advancement (again, how would buff spells play out in this option)?

Would you modify the feats endurance and diehard to fit with your system? Also, there was an old 2d lvl spell from 2d or 3d ed (I forget the name, and no, it was not a cure spell, but it was on the healing list since there was no 2d lvl healing spell) that had the primary purpose of mending bones, etc. to counteract the effects of the critical chart that could create such problems for characters. This spell might be adapted to the HTK system.

Just some thoughts to help with your integration. Please post some results of how this works out, I am interested to see where it leads. I like criticals, but the system can get cumbersome at times...

 

[Megahedron]

I think it was a good try, but I think you are making it too complicated. And, usually, that doesn't equate to better. You have to realize, there is already a system for death-from-massive-damage, which is what this seems like it's trying to do. Not necessarily kill, but there should be a penalty for taking that much damage, and I understand what you were trying to do. If you want to take less time and less stuff to remember, you can make up a table of random things that can happen when criticals occur. Such as, a player suffers a crit, in addition to the extra damage roll a d100, with like 1-5 is limb severed, 6-10 they get knocked prone, 11-15 an eye gets gouged out.

 

[Beholder Bob]

1) HTK is not subject to adjustments that last less then 1 day, and are not re-calculated until 1 day has passed. So bull strength and ability damage do not alter your HTK until the following day, and only if your stats are still modified.

2) HTK is not capped. As your base attack and stats rise, so to does your HTK. There is no maximum.

3) A spell to mend HTK will be added after I get a chance to play test the effects of using it.

4) I have never cared for death from massive damage. At low levels, it's redundant - you die from the amount anyways. Once you reach the upper levels, that threshold occurs too often, representing a bout of 'pray not to fumble'.

5) This system does add a level of complexity, but the calculation of HTK occurs once per level unless something dramatic occurs (stat drain/damage, permanent stat increase), and even then, everything is in 1/2 pt steps, so a 4 strength drain is -2 HTK. The one big complication I see is size. I'm considering making size adjustments simply a +/- adjustment to HTK, less detailed, but far easier. Each size below medium is -2 HTK; each step up from medium is +5 HTK. HTK minimum = 1/2 Base atack.

**) It was suggested by someone that I check out unearthed arcana and found the vitality system and armor as DR. My system provides more HTK then the vitality system, though my system inflicts more serious damage more often. My armor as DR does not reduce the AC gained from armor - and I give no DR for light armor.

Well, I'll have to wait and see the results of the system. As a side note, anyone use the vitality system from unearthed arcana?

 

[Ilja]

The system seems okay, though a bit too complicated. Every attack will add a lot of extra math with no replacing it. I really dislike the idea of turning flat damage bonuses into dice, as it is much extra work for little benefit when you simply could have halved the damage.

You might want to check out the Grim'n'Gritty ruleset - while it doesn't do the same things as here, it has the same purpose: Making combat dangerous. And not much math is added either.

 

[Beholder Bob]

The system seems okay, though a bit too complicated. Every attack will add a lot of extra math with no replacing it. I really dislike the idea of turning flat damage bonuses into dice, as it is much extra work for little benefit when you simply could have halved the damage.

You might want to check out the Grim'n'Gritty ruleset - while it doesn't do the same things as here, it has the same purpose: Making combat dangerous. And not much math is added either.

I find the grim system adds more math then my modification, and much more data to track in combat (called shots, bleeding, trauma, injury, pounce...). I'm hoping my system adjustment will be done mostly at the time of writing up the character sheet (you'd figure out your HTK, DR, and weapon damage ahead of time and note it on your sheet). Alterations in damage in cmbt should be easy; a situation that adds 4 damage adds a d4, for example.

I'm changing +x dmg into dice so that damage is not static, which allows for more variable damage. A great sword wielded w/18 STR) does 3d6 & 0-3 HTK per strike.

Using dice instead of a static bonus does lower the standard damage, but this change affects your foes to, so +12 damage against a PC becomes 2d6, lowering the damage you take, as well.

Spells suffer the same distinction, so a 5th level casting of magic missiles does 3d4 + d3 (which does 0-3 HTK, w/ odds of 3 HTK is 1 in 64). I like the grim system's subtraction of armor's protection from spells as well, so I think I'll add that as well.

 

[silveryfox]

Interesting system.

You might want to check out some variant rule sets from Unearthed Arcana.

Vitality and Wounds points (p.115): Vitality is like HP and Wounds are your CON, critical hits don't multiply damage but takes Wound points immediately. We have used this system in our Ravenloft campaign, works alright. I can see this work great in a swashbuckler setting.

Armor as Damage Reduction (p.111): You half the armor bonus of armors, rounding down, the remaining bonus is a DR x/-. In a medieval low-level setting I can see this being very cool.

Not sure if any of those are things you are interested in, but could be worth checking out.