Holy cow my party has 3 strikers in it

[jayphonic]

What's really missing here is a discussion about DMing different groups through pre-fab adventures. Sometimes those adventures simply aren't tailored to the group in question. I reject the notion that strikers are the best classes in the game. they are the best damage dealers certainly.

How are the group's resources being managed? Are they being placed in situations where they are unable to take extended rests at will? How do your encounters stack on each other? Do you have any encounters specifically designed to challenge the PCs and eat healing surges? Are there wandering monsters in your adventures? All of these questions are important.

A party with a defender, leader, controller and 2 strikers can weather many different types of encounters better than a party with 5 strikers.

 

[Herschel]

The more I play 4e, the more apparent it becomes that strikers are the best classes in the game, and all other classes are largely unnecessary and only a playstyle choice.....

....Strikers are, for the most part, as durable as any defender class.

This is patently false from so many standpoints. Strikers are generally glass cannons, as they should be. Without proper support, they go down easily against well-designed or well-run foes. They do nicely against certain solos and brutes, but minions, controllers and artillery can give them fits.

The Avenger can have the nice defenses, but a good brute should shred him if he tries to do his schtick.

The Archer Ranger can have his line of sight blocked just like enemy artillery can.

The melee ranger and rogue can't take too many swings on them as their defenses generally aren't great. The barbarian generally has one very poor target defense also.

The Warlock has a lot of controller in him.

I've found that having all the roles covered is very important. When a striker goes down, is there a leader to bring him back and keep him from dying? Is there a defender to absorb a good deal of the attacks coming at the party and keep the damage dealers clean? Can the controller block or harrass opposing artillery and keep minions from egging the strikers? Etc.

I see a Cleric with a Mordenkrad smashing stuff with a vengeance but his ability to heal makes it extremely hard to knock anyone actually out of the fight or dang near double the value of their healing surges.

Also, halving the monster HPs simply plays right in to the PCs hands. Generally speaking, the PCs do a lot more damage on a crit, for example, than most monsters when a couple of pluses hit the weapon. It's basically turning the monster in to a striker-type opponent.

 

[Tetravys]

Good suggestions everybody, thanks for the help. I do like the idea of throwing tons of minions at them. The party is somewhat limited in that regard, with only their daily powers being able to affect more than one target at a time. I'm just a little surprised this happened in the first place, since after all, there's only 4 of them when the WotC adventures are based on a party of 5. I've been adding a few extra monsters here and there, but mostly just increasing it from 5 skeletons to 7 for example. Maybe next time they might run into 15 who just happen to be minions.

Just so you know it's not a total shutout, they have failed every single skill challenge so far. They actually look at each other dejected whenever one comes up, because they know what the odds are. I guess that's what happens when no one's trained in Arcana or Religion or Diplomacy.

@mathewfreeman - I can only imagine the complete and utterly torrential downpour of total devastation that is about to envelop the Horned Hold with a party of 7 battering down the door. My hat is off to you if the entire complex doesn't end up ablaze (yes burning stone!), with duergar fleeing for their very lives.

@oldgumphrey - I share your pain. I've had to point at a given monster from time to time, and ask the table what everybody was entitled to do if it were to move. Our PCs just hit 8th level as well, and are at 83, 79, 80, and 82 for defenses. And if anybody's curious, the fighter is the 80 for some reason.

@jayphonic - You're right, the official WotC adventures definitely expect a more heterogeneous party mix. The problem ends up easier to deal with later on...it eventually gets to the point where a higher percentage of the monsters get "evasive maneuvers", which I'm very much looking forward to.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I really can't believe all of this "strikers are glass cannons" noise across this thread, this board, and other boards. I've given empirical evidence showing that strikers regularly have some of the best defenses in the game, but I hear "no, you're wrong, because I said so, and because if I accept that strikers have good defenses, that means OG is right! Screw that!"

I mean the OP comes back saying his fighter has the SECOND WORST defenses in a party of 4, but strikers are glass cannons? Remember the other 3 characters, including the 2 with better defenses than the fighter, are strikers. They also have more ways to get out of the way than fighters do. And they have very similar hit point totals. 1 extra hp / level is really not that big of a deal.

The only classes I've seen that have really outstanding HP totals are rageblood barbs, axe/mace fighters, and guardian wardens. My infernal warlock has more HP than our "tank" paladin, along with higher NADs, endless temporary HP, and multiple teleports. Oh, and I also deal more combat damage by a good margin. And I'm a frickin' warlock, who is supposedly a gimpy striker class.

With full optimization, a defender will be the most durable. Sure. But his damage decreases enough to where that extra bit of defense is meaningless. Strikers should ALWAYS have better defenses than controllers or leaders (except barbarians, who make up for poorer defenses with tons of temporary HP/debuffs and increased burst damage). And in our games, strikers do have better defenses than leaders and controllers (and about half the time, the tanks too).

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Also, all striker classes have access to AOE attacks. Some, like the barbarian and sorcerer, get AOE attacks per encounter and on dailies. If you're running 5 strikers, grab a few AoE attacks, and minions no longer pose a threat, either.

 

[Elric]

@oldgumphrey - I share your pain. I've had to point at a given monster from time to time, and ask the table what everybody was entitled to do if it were to move. Our PCs just hit 8th level as well, and are at 83, 79, 80, and 82 for defenses. And if anybody's curious, the fighter is the 80 for some reason.

Total defenses isn't a great metric, because, particularly in the heroic tier, most attacks go against AC. See the stats here: 51% of heroic tier MM creatures only have attacks against AC, and only 4.4% don't have an attack against AC.

There's an interesting thread on the WotC optimization forums about "party optimization", here. The suggestions tend to be striker-heavy (especially Rangers), but aren't in the vein of "5 strikers." For what it's worth, lordduskblade on the optimization forum has written (very detailed) handbooks on Rangers, Warlords, and Fighters, and he says that fighters are the strongest class in the game at the moment (with rangers and warlords not far behind).

 

[Herschel]

I really can't believe all of this "strikers are glass cannons" noise across this thread, this board, and other boards. I've given empirical evidence showing that strikers regularly have some of the best defenses in the game, but I hear "no, you're wrong, because I said so, and because if I accept that strikers have good defenses, that means OG is right! Screw that!"

Your "empirical evidence" is anecdotal and limted to your specific group and group style. Others have shown in many threads, many times how you are wrong in the game at large.

And combat positions ar also important. The Melee Ranger/Rogue has a 1 better AC than the wizard? Whoopety do. That melee guy is going to get his AC whacked a lot more than the Wizard, for example. You are examining things in a vacuum rather than how the game actually plays on the wider scope.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

@mathewfreeman - I can only imagine the complete and utterly torrential downpour of total devastation that is about to envelop the Horned Hold with a party of 7 battering down the door. My hat is off to you if the entire complex doesn't end up ablaze (yes burning stone!), with duergar fleeing for their very lives.

I know. It's going to be awesome.

I'm planning on running the duregar as smart. The players are going to have to work hard if they want to take everything on one encounter at a time - I'm planning on running encounters together should anyone do anything stupid.

 

[invokethehojo]

I haven't had time to read this thread, just the first post, but I have a quick tip...

you mentioned maybe having your players make new characters, which we tried but everyone just made new strikers, why not have them just remake thier characters as hybrids with the new expanded hybrid rules? They can all keep thier original PC, just add new elements and hopefully some diversity. Just an idea

 

[Regicide]

I'm planning on running the duregar as smart. The players are going to have to work hard if they want to take everything on one encounter at a time - I'm planning on running encounters together should anyone do anything stupid.

Smart but with fingers in their ears? The encounters should normally run together into one (or possibly 3) great big sticky blob(s) if you give them reasonable perception checks. The encounters are literally an (open) doorway apart. Unless they're rocking back and forth with their fingers in their ears gibbering "la la la, you're not in my room yet I don't know you're there", then there should be a LOT of encounter overlap.