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Home Made D&D Edition

digitalelf

Explorer
Second edition is an interesting case, because it actually does feature real Bounded Accuracy, to a degree far beyond what 5E implements. Since skill checks and saving throws were a flat roll-under on a d20

I agree with your response, but just a minor nit-pick; one has to roll high for saving throws in 1st and 2nd edition...

It wasn't uncommon (at least at my table) for the mage to start out with a better attack bonus than the fighter, simply due to the whims of the dice.

I'm curious. How did those mages get better to hit than a fighter? Did your tables only use straight rolls down the line (instead of, for example, roll 3d6 six times and assign as desired)?
 

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Greenfield

Adventurer
Two reasons, one in-game and one out-of-game:

The in-game reason is diminishing returns for effort. It's the same reason why it takes more experience to gain a level when you're level 15 than when you're level 3. The wizard, already being far behind the curve in terms of martial prowess, is still picking up the easy tricks that the fighter mastered a long time ago. The fighter is learning super complicated stuff that takes a lot of effort to master. That's why they manage to advance at the same rate, in spite of the wizard putting in less-rigorous training.
Sorry, I'm not trying to mock, but that rationale makes more than a few presumptions, such as that the Wizard is practicing sword play at all.

The only difference between the Wizard and the melee artist, at 1st level, is their different base stats. At least in terms of hitting the AC.

While at 10th level, the difference is... (drumroll...) their base stats. Melee types will pick up tricks to do more damage, or give the odd bonus to someone else on the field, but their base to-hit is still universal proficiency plus ability score + any magic on their weapon.

Looking in the other direction I ran a fighter, an absolute idiot Dragon born, who decided to take Ritual Caster at 10th level. He had no training or background in any spell related activities, but because it was all level related, his first ritual was Raise Dead. Didn't matter that none of his levels were in anything related to religion or the arcane, he could raise the dead because he decided he could.

The out-of-game reason is that disparate advancement rates are unsustainable over any meaningful period. If the specialist succeeds 70% of the time in their area of expertise and a chump succeeds 40% of the time (at low levels), then failing to synchronize their advancement rates will quickly get to a point where the specialist is succeeding too often or the chump is succeeding too rarely.
Maybe it's just a personal thing, but I'm not sure why it's a problem for someone who has never trained with a blade to not stay as good as the blade specialist as they advance. Should the blade specialist automatically gain magical proficiency too?

Should a Wizard be 40% effective with a weapon he's seldom used and never trained with when facing a boss-monster?

You can see this effect if you look at third edition, where wizards quickly reach the point of "don't bother rolling" when it comes to their attack rolls, and fighters only care about their attack bonus because it limits how much they can pour into Power Attack. Fourth edition, while not perfect by any means, still managed to fix that problem.
And there stands the difference in our positions, in a nutshell. You see it as a problem that a Wizard isn't also a minor duelist, and I don't.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to like the things you like. I'm just saying that I disagree.
 

Sorry, I'm not trying to mock, but that rationale makes more than a few presumptions, such as that the Wizard is practicing sword play at all.
If nothing else, there's a baseline assumption in class-based games that a character will use all of their abilities at some point. That's why your skills improve at all, even if you don't get XP from using them; the assumption is that you're using those skills in proportion to how many monsters you defeat (or how much gold you find), such that we only need to track one variable (monsters, or gold), in order to make generalizations about all of your abilities. Your character shouldn't even have abilities, if they are never going to use them.

Maybe that's an unreasonable assumption, but ignoring that assumption adds a lot of complexity to the mechanics. I know that third edition had a suggestion in the DMG that the DM should only let a PC gain ranks in a skill if they actually used that skill since the previous level, but I also seem to recall that the advice wasn't repeated in Pathfinder (in spite of it being the same exact game with the same exact assumptions of play), and my only explanation is that they figured it wasn't worth the effort to track.

That leads into the issue of role-playing in order to bypass mechanical restrictions, which is more evident with the simplified weapon proficiencies introduced in third edition. In second edition, your fighter could take proficiency with longsword or battle axe, but a third edition fighter is automatically proficient with all martial weapons. And it's not the case that every single fighter ever has actually trained with longswords and rapiers and battle axes and glaives and heavy flails and so on, as much as role-playing your fighter as a weaponsmaster who had done that would not be mechanically unbalanced, so they just handwave it all rather than requiring every fighter to explicitly have done so.

If your objection is that a wizard shouldn't get better with a sword unless they actually practice, and your objection can be overcome by the player remembering to say that they practice swordfighting every night, then the alternative case (where the wizard doesn't practice swordfighting) is not worth modeling mechanically.
And there stands the difference in our positions, in a nutshell. You see it as a problem that a Wizard isn't also a minor duelist, and I don't.
Is your objection to all class-and-level games, then? Because every such game that I'm aware of - certainly every edition of D&D, at least - has had spellcasters automatically advance with their weapon abilities (combat matrix, THAC0, BAB, level-bonus, or proficiency bonus) regardless of whether they actually used them.

That's a different question than whether advancement rates should be symmetric or not. If you think wizards shouldn't advance at all with their weapon skills, then that's understandable, especially from a verisimilitude standpoint. Especially in 5E, where everyone has cantrips, it's fair to assume that a wizard never actually swings their sword.

If you're willing to assume some amount of advancement with abilities that aren't explicitly used during play, though, then we can move on to the question of how much. (If you're not, then fine, but you should be objecting to the whole class-and-level system in that case.) If we're going to say that the wizard gets better with their sword over time, then how much better should they get? Should they improve much more slowly than the fighter, such that we're technically tracking the math even though it will never come up during play? Or should their relative disadvantage remain constant, such that there's a chance (however minor) that they might actually use that ability, and the math doesn't collapse into the inadequacy of d20 granularity when they attempt to do so? From a perspective of gameplay balance, the answer seems obvious.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Sample Fighter example.

Note was having trouble making a tale. Prof = +2 level 1, +3 level 5 a'la 5E.

Level/Abilities
1. Weapon specialization (reroll 1 on attack rolls, +1 dice on crit), bonus feat
2 Action Surge 1/day(same as 5E)
3. Bonus Feat
4. Action surge 2/day.
5. Bonus Feat, 2nd attack

Saves (prof adds to all saves as you level)
Level 1. Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0

xp
Level 1. 0
Level 2. 2000
Level 3 4000
Level 4. 8000
Level 5. 16000

3 Feats.

Cleave.
When you reduce an opponent to 0 damage you may make an extra attack as a bonus action.

Power Attack.
-2 to hit, +3 damage.

Weapon focus.
You get +1 to hit with weapons.

Basic idea is more moving parts than 5E, keep it simple though and ditch short rest abilities everything is daily.
 
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Greenfield

Adventurer
Is my objection to all class-based games?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. My thought is that, in a class based game, each class would advance most rapidly in their own class' field of specialty.

I'm not expecting a Ranger, no matter how sharp eyed of dexterous, to find and disable traps on a locked door or chest. I'm not expecting a Fighter type to be good at deciphering magic or identifying items. I don't expect Rogue/sneaky types to be master healers, etc.

So, if anything, my objection is to degrading the difference between classes that's inherent in having everyone get good at every skill and combat specialty at the exact same rate, trained or not.

As for advancement being symmetrical: Of course they should be, that's part of good game balance. The fighter types should get better at combat, the casters should become better casters, the sneaky types should get better at sneaking and fighting dirty, the leader types should become better leaders, etc. Symmetric doesn't mean identical though.

Think of it this way: In school, did the head of the chess club become a better wrestler each grade? Did the top wrestler automatically get good at chess (even though he's never learned the rules)?

People may all be created equal, but they aren't created the same. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we tend to focus on our strengths, practicing and improving them, often to the exclusion of other things. (In grade school, my math teacher couldn't spell to save her life, and in study hall I discovered that my English teacher was of no help at all when it came to math questions.)

So I'd be surprised if a Wizard even knew what "attack en quarte'" or "Riposte" meant. (They're fencing terms specific to formal blade combat.) And to be honest, there's absolutely no reason why they should.
 

Celebrim

Legend
All systems regardless of fortune mechanic that they use, run into problems when the average size of the bonus begins to come close to the average range produced by the fortune mechanic. Bounded accuracy is just an attempt to forestall reaching this problem.

Dice pool systems aren't really an exception, they just bury their math better. But a typical dice pool game starts to get broken when you have 10 or 12 dice in a pool.

Thus, all systems are going to as a consequence of using some sort of random fortune mechanic have a 'sweet spot' between where the bonuses are large enough to give the player agency, but not so large that players cannot cooperate on the same problems or else render all tasks trivial and without meaningful risk.
 

As for advancement being symmetrical: Of course they should be, that's part of good game balance.
Do you honestly believe that it's efficient game design, to track advancement of a stat that can't actually be represented using the basic system mechanics? That it's worth tracking the wizard's attack bonus all the way up to +12, when a +12 can't meaningfully interact with the AC 35 enemies that the high-level wizard is facing, such that they need a 20 in order to hit regardless of their level?
Think of it this way: In school, did the head of the chess club become a better wrestler each grade? Did the top wrestler automatically get good at chess (even though he's never learned the rules)?
That's inherent to a class-and-level system, though. A high-level wizard in third edition is better with a sword than a low-level fighter is. If you object to the chess-player out-wrestling the wrestler, sheerly on account of levels, then you should object to class-and-level design. Fourth edition is no different from third edition or BECMI, in that way.
 

Weapon focus.
You get +1 to hit with weapons.
That is probably the simplest way to address growth rates, if you want to give the option for someone to advance more quickly in their area of specialty, without disrupting the math entirely. It might feel like a feat tax to some people, though, if they feel like they have to take it just in order to keep up with everyone else.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
That is probably the simplest way to address growth rates, if you want to give the option for someone to advance more quickly in their area of specialty, without disrupting the math entirely. It might feel like a feat tax to some people, though, if they feel like they have to take it just in order to keep up with everyone else.

Well as I said my edition would have a few more moving parts than 5E but I would still want to keep it simple. There would be no other feat that grants a +1 bonus to hit but Elves may get a +1 or 2 bonus with short swords, long swords, long bows, short bows but there is no -5/+10 equivalent so an elven bowman is good but can't break the game stacking it with the archer style.

I might update the rapid shot feat (-2 to hit, bonus action extra attack), but smal attacks like monk, dual wielding, bows etc wold be more about multiple attacks ((all requiring the bonus action).

Some 3.5 feats would be buffed (weapon focus), others would be merged (feat that grants +2 bonus on all saves) while some 5E feats would be broken up (GWM into cleave and power attack) but things like power attack wold be capped (-2/+3 a'la 4E). Th idea is to have some choices available (more than 5E) but without the extremes of some of the 3E-5E feats (3.5 Power attack, 4E combos, 5E -5/+10 feats).

Some attacks would be for added damage (power attack), other styles would be accuracy, others would be spamming weaker attacks, others would give bonus dice (cross bow sniper). Great weapon for exmaple would be more base damage and big crits.
 

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