[Homebrew] In a godless campaign what do you with clerics?

[Blue]

If your campaign world had a different take on the pantheon, how do you handle the cleric class? If there are no gods, then logically there would be no clerics, possibly no paladins. Some players really like these classes but where do you draw a line between a campaign world with a certain story element and what is printed/RAW in the game manuals?

Well, Dark Sun took out all clerics back when it was first introduced. Having mechanics that support and enforce a setting gives your campaign a unique feel.

Alternately, just reskin. Divine magic is just divine magic becuase it says "divine" on the tin. Pretty much true for Arcane magic as well. The only class that has mechanical hooks into specific non-mundane power sources is the warlock. And even there it's easy to keep the sources and reskin them.

Perhaps there is more than one flavor of arcane magic. Perhaps people's beliefs in a shared ideal let them tap into that shared consciousness and make things happen. Perhaps just like sorcerers are natural talents, people's personalities can manifest power. Mayhaps there are organizations that train one in ways of doing things, just like monk monasteries, but don't have anything to do with religion and more with dueling philosophies.

In other words, figure what you want to happen, and then how to you explain it within your campaign.

 

[Tersival]

Eberron presents gods as divine power that may or may not exist. There are established religions (of many kinds if you include various "Cults of the Dragon Below", which is a collective term for many unrelated cults), with many believers, but no certain proof that gods exist or where they came from... so you could take a leaf from that approach. The cleric's Divine Intervention ability may well invoke miracles, but you could just as easily say that is because the cleric BELIEVES something should happen so strongly in that moment, as because their "god" makes it happen.

You might also say clerics are generally independent of organised religion. Over the ages, some individuals are born with miraculous powers. Perhaps these powers led some such individuals to found religions that led to ancient wars that ended with "religion" being forbidden, so no temples or churches where one could go to pay for healing.

The question is, when you say "no gods", what effect on the setting generally do you imagine that has?

 

[Laurefindel]

But where does their oath get power from?

beliefs and convictions. Faith is a form of conviction, but not the sole source of beliefs.

 

[Celebrim]

beliefs and convictions. Faith is a form of conviction, but not the sole source of beliefs.

So where do belief, convictions, or faith get their power from?

Nevermind. I just always find such claims intensely ironic, sort of like Pacific island cargo cults.

 

[Staffan]

But where does their oath get power from?

There's nothing that says an oath needs to be enforced by anything divine. For example, in Stephen Donaldson's books about Thomas Covenant, there is a group of people called the Bloodguard who have taken an oath to protect and serve the Lords of the Land, and their oath is imbued with Earthpower that makes them stronger, tougher, and ageless.

Well, Dark Sun took out all clerics back when it was first introduced. Having mechanics that support and enforce a setting gives your campaign a unique feel.

Original Dark Sun didn't remove clerics, but it made them dependent on pacts with elements (whether in the abstract or personified as some form of elemental lord) rather than worship of a deity, and replaced the spheres that normally controlled access to priest magic with elementally themed ones. 4e Dark Sun did remove clerics, but by that point the shaman class had been added to the game as a primal-powered leader serving the role of elemental priest.

 

[Tersival]

But where does their oath get power from?

Past editions and (if I recall correctly) Dragon magazines have presented this in different ways that generally boil down to

(a) *from* the strength of their convictions/commitment to a cause (causing them to lose powers when their conviction/commitment wavers or breaks); or

(b) divine blessing *because of* their conviction/commitment to a cause (causing them to lose powers when the divinity granting said blessing becomes disappointed in their actions/conviction/commitment).

Faith in a deity is an option that may or may not be part of the paladin (and dare I say cleric's) outlook or personality.

 

[Celebrim]

I play 3e, so I have no idea how hard this would be in 5e, but I've several times considered running settings with a single spellcasting class. If I did so, I've never considered 'cleric' or 'wizard' as the generic spell-caster.

Instead, I favor one of the following:

Psion: All magic is a result of mental powers of some sort. Minds are inherently magical because in the physics of the setting, the setting is predisposed to respond to the will and be shaped by it. The Psion can be flavored to just about anything.
Sorcerer: All magic is the result of some heritage from which the power or authority of magic was inherited. While mortals obviously don't have the power or authority to work magic, bloodlines exist where mortals share in the power of magical creatures. This is a world of mutants and scions, and pretty much any other sort of magic can be derived from that. Want a psion? Have someone with a linage of mental magic. Want a favored soul? Have someone with a celestial linage.
Shaman: All magic is the result of some sort of bargain between mortals and supernatural entities. This is an animistic world where everything is alive and has a spirit animating it or associated with it. Magic is just convincing those spirits to do what you want. Again, virtually every sort of magical tradition can be derived from that, from things that look more like clerics, to bards, or wizards. Green Ronin's 3e Shaman class makes an excellent base chasis for this approach with just a small amount of rework.

None of those three approaches require 'gods', although they all do call into question whether any of those three settings would realize that they don't have 'gods' in them? Lacking something to compare with, how would they know? After all, a great many animists will happily speak of a god in a tree or a rock, and the Greeks themselves would speak of the god of a spring, or a tree. How big does a god need to be before it is a god?

 

[Celebrim]

There's nothing that says an oath needs to be enforced by anything divine. For example, in Stephen Donaldson's books about Thomas Covenant, there is a group of people called the Bloodguard who have taken an oath to protect and serve the Lords of the Land, and their oath is imbued with Earthpower that makes them stronger, tougher, and ageless.

Then effectively, isn't this "Earthpower" just an impersonal deity?

What do you mean by 'divine' anyway?

 

[Yunru]

Paladins technically aren't empowered by gods in 5e, but their belief.

I see no problem with simply removing gods and Clerics, the Druid has enough healing to pick up the slack, and anyone with a Herbalism Kit can make Potions of Healing.

 

[Oofta]

But where does their oath get power from?

Short version? Magic.

Slightly longer version? From the power of their conviction.

From the PHB:

Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil. Whether sworn before a god’s altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.
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So even in a generic D&D campaign, the power doesn't necessarily come from the gods.