Homebrew Rogue Archetype: Charismatic Bastard

[Machiknight]

THIS IS VERSION 3.0 UPDATED 12/13/2015

I am a first time DM. This player is adamantly against wanting to use spells, but likes the fast talker/con man type idea for their rogue. This is what I've come up as an archetype for as she didn't really like the ones available.
The name was changed so that it wasn't quite so double entendre-y.


I took several suggestions into account and removed a lot of the stuff that makes the DM have to work more (ribbon ability stuff).


The name was changed so that it wasn't quite so double entendre-y.
I took several suggestions into account and removed a lot of the stuff that makes the DM have to work more (ribbon ability stuff).
Roguish Archetype Charismatic Bastard: Your focus is on people and on the way to influence them.
-Silver Tongued Devil: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in 2 of; Insight Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion. Additionally you may gain advantage on any check of Deception, Persuasion or intimidation one time per Charisma bonus (Min 1). Gain all expended uses back after a long rest.
-Hurtful Rhetoric: Starting at 3rd level you may use your bonus action given by Cunning Action to shout a string of insults at a creature within 30 feet, once per Charisma bonus (Min 1). If the target can hear and understand you (it must be capable of language), it must succeed on a Wisdom (DC 8 + cha mod+ proficiency bonus) saving throw, or it gains disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the beginning of your next turn, and you gain advantage on your next attack directed at it. Deafened creature automatically succeed on the save. Gain back all uses after a short or long rest.
-Dominant Personality: Starting at 9th level, once per charisma bonus (Min 1) as an action you project the dominance of your personality on all those around you. Any opponent that targets you with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the opponent must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell, while giving you advantage on your next attack against that opponent. On a successful save the attacker suffers disadvantage on it's next roll against you. Gain back all uses after a short or long rest. Duration 1 minute. (This is kind of a slightly more powerful "Sanctuary" spell)
-Uncanny Empathy: Beginning at 13th, your empathy has become becomes magical; any creature that can understand a language can understand you; you gain the ability to understand all languages. Your empathy is so strong it now extends to animals as well as intelligent creatures giving you proficiency in animal handling or extending your Rogue Expertise ability to it if you already have proficiency.
-ArchLinguist: Starting at 17th level, you gain immunity to charm and charm-like effects and your “Silver Tongued Devil” ability gains unlimited uses. Additionally, no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful, and you now double your proficiency bonus for your “Hurtful Rhetoric” ability's DC.
Please let me know what you think! Thanks so much!

 

[jodyjohnson]

Some thoughts...

First off this reminds me of the “Diplomancer” style build one might find in 3.x/PF where in certain situations the character essentially removes options from the game because they are so good in that situation. Much like a “Can't-Hit-Me” tank ends up not getting attacked because it is too obvious that attacking their AC is a bad idea.

As a DM this build largely works in one pillar (Interaction) but at the same time can be desired to be so good that it always works; and then there becomes little point in actually playing it out. (“yeah, yeah, yeah you talk to the guard and he lets you through”, or “once again they all run away just like last time”).

(The Enchantment school has always had similar issues because it can be both “too good” and “useless” in play.)

Secondly, it in large part rests on an understanding that the Skill mechanics rank above the DM (the skill rules tell the DM how things work), in opposition to the standard 5e resolution that DM's ask for rolls to resolve uncertainty but is ultimately the arbiter in how declared actions are resolved. In some respects the 5e philosophy of DM rulings over rules was implemented in response to the “Diplomancer” and the sometimes 'unfun' situation where the skill mechanics take the agency away from the DM. Because the goal in 5e is still 'have fun' and not necessarily 'my powers always work'.

Thirdly, I’m not sure if the Swashbuckler and Mastermind subclasses were considered (from Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide). Some of the features look like one or the other.

Finally, to some extent many of these don’t add options – Rogues can already get those skills and Expertise at level 1. They can already get advantage via description or situation. The button press aspect gets more player agency in theory but at a risk of being negated by the agency the DM is likely to exercise.

The specifics…

Silver Tongued Devil: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in Deception, Insight, Intimidation, and Persuasion. If you already have proficiency in these, gain Expertise instead. If you already have expertise in any of these you may choose to gain proficiency in any other Rogue Skill. You also learn an additional language of your choice.

I expect a character built on them will get 2 more skills with Expertise, 2 non-thematic skills, and a language. This will also leave the 2 more Expertise choices at 6th non-thematic. My suggestion would be just to skip this as if you want to go this direction you already have by level 3. And you have too many abilities at 3rd anyway.

Manipulative Bastard: Starting at 3rd level; once per long rest you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature/person of your choice for one encounter.

This feels like an ‘I win’ button but practically speaking will be saved for a defining encounter where the default expectation will be to offer a challenge – then it essentially says ‘whenever an encounter that is supposed to showcase my ability happens – I win it easily’. Or suddenly every key NPC will have abilities where they have advantage on the opposed checks or a situation where they are themselves Master Debaters.

Hurtful Rhetoric: Starting at 3rd level as a bonus action; you unleash a string of insults at a creature you can see within range (60ft). If the target can hear you (thought it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom (DC 8 + cha mod+ proficiency bonus) saving throw or have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn, and you gain advantage on your next attack directed at it.

This is pretty strong, like a bonus action cantrip you’d spam every round. Offense and defense with an extra dice roll every round. Mechanically similar to a bonus action Trip but they can’t just stand up to negate the disadvantage. Not overly powerful but I’m not a fan of the ‘spam every round’ aspect.

Voting Issue:

Logical Fallacy:

Seems like a nonmagical Suggestion spell and a Sanctuary spell once per day. No big deal.
Although the ‘advantage on your next attack’ wording should be more specific since you can spell one target and then attack another. The ‘talker not a fighter’ vibe is inconsistent with getting Advantage on your next attack.
The 17th level capstone falls into the ‘so good you never get to use it’ category. Your already get 10 minimum from Reliable talent. Upping it to 15 for your key skills is problematic. At 17th your bonus is probably +17 (+5 from Charisma, +12 from Expertise and proficiency) so your minimum on a key Charisma check is 32. Even with a disadvantage to cancel out your potential advantage.

 

[Machiknight]

Here is Version 2.0 with changes made based upon these and other suggestions!

-Master Debater: Your focus is on people and on the way to influence and control them with your words.

-Silver Tongued Devil: When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in 2 of; Insight Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion. Additionally you may gain advantage on any check of Deception, Persuasion or intimidation one time per Charisma bonus (Min 1). Gain all expended uses back after a short or long rest. You also learn 2 additional languages.

-Hurtful Rhetoric: Starting at 3rd you may use your bonus action given by Cunning Action to shout a string of insults at a creature within 30 feet. If the target can hear and understand you (it must be capable of language), it must succeed on a Wisdom (DC 8 + cha mod+ proficiency bonus) saving throw or have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the beginning of your next turn, and you gain advantage on your next attack directed at it. You also learn 1 additional Language.

-Manipulative Bastard: Starting at 9th level, outside of combat, you suggest a course of activity through a series of compelling arguments and influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. The course of action must sound like something the creature would logically due and that fits its nature, and would not OBVIOUSLY be harmful to it (physically injure itself etc). The target must make a Charisma saving throw. (DC 8 + cha mod+ proficiency bonus) on a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability, thinking that the course of action was its own idea. If the target succeeds on its saving throw, it believes it has won an argument with you and becomes cocky giving you advantage on all charisma and insight checks against it for the remainder of the encounter. This ability may be used once per long rest. You also learn 1 additional language.

-Logical Fallacy: Beginning at 13th level, once per charisma bonus (Min 1) as an action you may state a short comment that may or may not be true. Any opponent that targets you with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the opponent must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell, while giving you advantage on your next attack against that opponent. On a successful save the attacker suffers disadvantage on attack rolls against you and you still have advantage on your next attack against that opponent. Gain back all uses after a short or long rest. You also learn 1 additional language.

-ArchLinguist: Starting at 17th level, your connection to language has become so deep as to be magical; you speak and understand any language. You gain advantage on saves to charm and charm-like effects and your “Silver Tongued Devil” ability gains unlimited uses. Additionally, no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.

 

[Connorsrpg]

This is a joke right? The name. You cannot keep that name. (Well, you can but all those Charisma bonuses probably don't apply to the Internet or magazines for the old school).

 

[jodyjohnson]

I suggest switching it to "Cunning Linguist".

A little curious on the double dip for 'additional language' at level 3. 2+1 additional languages.

When you go down that road sometimes there is a tendency to add details that you normally wouldn't because someone can do something.

For example, I don't like messing with scenarios where I want to have open communication but then feel like I need to set up barriers. Normally everyone speaks common, but since a character is a polyglot I need to add situations where that is useful. So suddenly I have people that only speak Netherese when normally they'd just speak Common because the Master Debater speaks Netherese.

That's a Ribbon ability, something that is only useful because the DM introduces situations where it is useful. The entire class is in danger of becoming a Ribbon ability because every social situation the DM introduces needs to assume that the player can change it to their benefit.

See the Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain features of the Ranger or the Jedi Mind trick feature in Star Wars.

 

[CRJohnston]

I second Cunning Linguist

 

[Machiknight]

I suggest switching it to "Cunning Linguist".


A little curious on the double dip for 'additional language' at level 3. 2+1 additional languages.


When you go down that road sometimes there is a tendency to add details that you normally wouldn't because someone can do something.


For example, I don't like messing with scenarios where I want to have open communication but then feel like I need to set up barriers. Normally everyone speaks common, but since a character is a polyglot I need to add situations where that is useful. So suddenly I have people that only speak Netherese when normally they'd just speak Common because the Master Debater speaks Netherese.


That's a Ribbon ability, something that is only useful because the DM introduces situations where it is useful. The entire class is in danger of becoming a Ribbon ability because every social situation the DM introduces needs to assume that the player can change it to their benefit.


See the Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain features of the Ranger or the Jedi Mind trick feature in Star Wars.

Thank you so much for this, being a new DM I never thought of it this way, and I really appreciate this viewpoint. With that in mind I'm going to re-work it a bit so it isn't such a "ribbon" class...(whats that mean anyway? I have an idea...)