Homebrew: "Twin Strike" for an Avenger

[Tequila Sunrise]

Nope, your initial idea is two attacks, two damage rolls, my idea (stolen from whirling barbarian), is one attack, one damage roll. The damage from the off-hand weapon is just extra damage, so it won't get any modifiers. It will amount to more reasonable damage, some will still consider it too low for striker damage (it's nothing close to charger damage). Also you don't get to roll 4 dice for a chance to crit this way.

Hm, well I'll be honest: I'm not crazy about this idea.

But as a side topic, does Whirling Rend's 'secondary' damage really not get stuff like inherent bonuses? Isn't that stuff based on "damage rolls," which 1[W] certainly is...?

What exactly is the reasoning the new player's wish to play an Avenger (in addition to two-weapon fighting)? If he just likes the fluff... then I'd say remove (or heavily nerf) when he can use Oath of Enmity. That way there's an obvious equaling in power between the two... one Avenger gets to use the "two roll" ability of Oath all the time as normal... the other Avenger doesn't get to use it except in a couple circumstance, but is balanced by getting either additional attacks or additional weapon damage (if you use Mengu's suggestion.) That might be the only way to keep both players happy.

I don't think the new player has any idea how avengers even work. He and the original avenger player were both present during the session's finale battle, but I don't think he was paying attention to the avenger in particular. And come to think of it, he didn't even name avenger as the class he wants:

I simply explained the four combat roles, and the four* power sources. He didn't seem psyched to make a PC himself so I asked what kind he'd like to play. He said "I want to play a tiefling divine striker named Saif** who wields two swords."

*I don't mention psionics to new players.
**Arabic for 'sword.'

Simply say that each d20 roll when using Oath of Enmity represents an attack from a different weapon. Whichever rolls highest (and hits) is the weapon that deals the damage (and, if applicable, hit and/or crit effects). Or, if both hit, give him the choice of which weapon deals the damage and effects.

Somehow this seems like a copout. Isn't it really just shifting the potential for jealousy from Player 1 to Player 2? ("He also gets to roll twice, and rolls the damage of a two-handed weapon? Not fair!") The option to choose between two weapons in the event that both attack rolls hit is a minor advantage at best.

I'd rather refluff the ranger into a divine character -- swapping out dungeoneering/nature for religion is simplicity itself.

 

[Siberys]

There's also blackguard, unless you're not into Essentials stuff. Hybrided with a standard ranger (or a scout, if you're willing to HR a hybrid build for it; I have for my own games) and you have a pretty good divinely-powered TWFer.

 

[Mengu]

But as a side topic, does Whirling Rend's 'secondary' damage really not get stuff like inherent bonuses? Isn't that stuff based on "damage rolls," which 1[W] certainly is...?

They would stack, if they could stack. But same named bonuses don't. So you may have +1 enhancement bonus from primary and +1 enhancement from off-hand, but they wouldn't sack. Same with feat bonuses, items bonuses, what have you.

 

[Breaks]

I'd rather refluff the ranger into a divine character -- swapping out dungeoneering/nature for religion is simplicity itself.

Just build him a str/wis hybrid cleric|ranger taking battle cleric's lore and using hybrid talent for DWF. This satisfies everything he asked for without any refluffing or homebrew being necessary, and is a really fantastic hybrid combination.

Take multiattacks, interrupts, and minor action attacks from the ranger side (obviously) and interrupts from the cleric side, as well as (generally) offensive utilities.

You can also keep a couple of large cleric bursts/blasts handy, just in case.

 

[KarinsDad]

Somehow this seems like a copout. Isn't it really just shifting the potential for jealousy from Player 1 to Player 2? ("He also gets to roll twice, and rolls the damage of a two-handed weapon? Not fair!") The option to choose between two weapons in the event that both attack rolls hit is a minor advantage at best.

Compared to the amount of damage your as written Twin Blade Smite would have done? And radiant damage to boot?

Here is a more balanced solution:

Twin Blade Smite (at-will)
Requirement: Must be wielding two melee weapons
Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC (two total attacks; melee; main weapon and off-hand weapon)
Hit: 1[W] radiant damage per attack
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
Special: The Avenger cannot use Oath of Enmity with this attack.

So, the player can roll twice, once for each weapon. And, the damage is only a hair better than Twin Strike (because it is radiant).

And the player can still take a different Avenger At Will power for when he wants to use Oath of Enmity.

Quite frankly, this makes an Avenger about as good a Striker as a Ranger. The increase in versatility (e.g. extra minion killing, putting the final kill on one normal foe and still attacking another foe, and giving the Avenger a good power for when he has two foes next to him) and radiant damage somewhat making up for the immediate actions of a Ranger.

Then, just play all of the rest of the Avenger as written.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

They would stack, if they could stack. But same named bonuses don't. So you may have +1 enhancement bonus from primary and +1 enhancement from off-hand, but they wouldn't sack. Same with feat bonuses, items bonuses, what have you.

Wait, are we talking about the same power? Whirling Rend's off-hand damage must be dealt to a separate target.

 

[Ferghis]

I'd rather refluff the ranger into a divine character -- swapping out dungeoneering/nature for religion is simplicity itself.

This seems like a good idea. One that might need less work is the assassin: as long as you fluff shadow as some kind of divine power, you're good. And the flavor, in my mind, is already very middle-eastern: Assassins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BobTheNob]

Be very wary.

The half elven, twin striking avenger was one of the single most broken builds in the game. Even with the character having to sacrifice wisdom to make it work (it only kicked in at 11 when you could get that feat for half elves allowing them to spam the at-will).

What it comes down to is getting 4 rolls per round, then finding ways to get you crit rating down (dagger master was a popular choice, but they definitely plugged that one) now you sport 4 rolls per round with an 18+ to crit. It could out DPR anything.

Just cause you can do something, doesnt mean you should.

 

[GreyICE]

Divine striker wielding two swords? Just reflavor the ranger, and give him religion as a skill.

There's no reason to make a two avenger party. It's just going to result in hard feelings.

If you want to go with a more divine flavor, you can always make a Deva Ranger. It's not the most ideal build, but w/e.

 

[Gorgoroth]

.

I agree, ranger + bcl cleric is probably the best hybrid build (especially if you don't have a cleric already) with hybrid talent for TWF (and boost dex too, for an 18str 16dex build, and skip the scale armor and wear hide. the extra movement rate is better, and also makes him more similar to an avenger).

Or, if you are into refluffing the avenger oath mechanic, making him a ranger + paladin hybrid (still, keeping the TWF talent and stick to hide armor), and he can mark to his heart's content. Extra damage and effects could come into play in paragon with Son of Mercy, which is a rarely used but very potent PP (and very avengery too, I might add, at least in the names/effects of the powers and the fluff).

Refluffing is your friend. Mechanically, avengers are kind of ...bleh. Lots of book-keeping. And having two in a single party. no way.