Homebrew - Would like feedback on this version of the Sorcerer

[Blue]

I do have a thematic issue. For me, adding more spells known is the exact wrong way to go. Sorcerers differentiate themselves from wizards by being able to twist and manipulate their talents in ways wizards can't, wizards have a wideness of arcane knowledge but can only cast them one way. Making sorcerers more like wizards makes them less interesting as a separate class.

Now, you extended out metamagic with a lot more options and I'm loving that. Want to do other odd things like low level spells automatically are upcast because the sorcerer is the master of what they do know? Okay. Maybe being able to apply two metamagics at high levels. I'd even be open to creative but costly ways to circumvent one concentration slot or other things that break some of the fundamental rules that the other casters follow.

I'm much rather see a sorcerer getting more choices of metamagic options and some more powerful twists to spells, not something that makes them more like other casters.

I like the high-level limitations on spell slots - that keeps 5e expectations in place, and from the varied level playtests we did with the DMG spell point options, that's a very good thing.

Oh, some specific points to address:

Arcane Spell Twist means you can always land your spell. Going to a non-scaling save with your scaling DC gets closer and closer to auto-fail at higher levels. Doing something like twisting one Hypnotic Patterns and near-guarantee to take multiple foes out of the combat for an extended time for 3 SP is just too good. Plus I don't how how I am narrating some spell / new-save combinations. This one is just too good. Maybe 3 SP for one target to have disadvantage on a save.

Divide spell has much more of a drawback on damage dealing spells then anything else. Battlefield control spells and other debuffs are at full force. Heck, mass heals if you're a Divine Soul aren't reduced. I'd remove the damage penalty and just note that if the areas overlap they don't double-affect.

Level 20 caps are supposed to be outrageous, but a lot that are really powerful are for a limited use per day. This one is over the top. Plus having ALL metamagic multiplied by all of your spells known multiplied AGAIN by all of the column A metamagics since you can do them and any other is a lot of options and will probably slow down play.

 

[ScuroNotte]

Pretty sure your 19th and 20th Level features need reworded, because Arcanum makes no sense with how the rest of the class is built as written, especially since you didn't include the chart for converting Sorc Points to Spell Points. Speaking of which, I'm not sure I see the point of separating Sorc Points and Spell Points in this style of class, instead of combining the two, and allowing Metamagic to be formed from Spell Points, with a regain of a certain amount of points at short rest (which could be increased over the time that the class is leveled)

And you need to specify duration on the 'Limitless Font of Magic' capstone.

You cannot convert Spell Points to Sorcery Points.
By creating a distinction between the two, you can:
1. Allow expended Sorcery points to be recovered after a short rest
2. Not be concerned of making the sorcerer overpowered by using metamagic at will if sorcery points and spell points were combined.

By using Sorcery Points for metamagic and abilities only, you lessen the demand. Currently Sorcery Points are used for "arcane recovery", metamagic, and abilities. Forcing you to burn through the sorcery points. By allowing them to be separate, you can now regain expended sorcery points after a short rest and not be concerned about burning through them prematurely.

And by using Spell Points, you still maintain the original intent of flexibility of the Sorcerer as they do not need to transfer spell slots to points at a discount. Which leads to the Sorcerous Arcanum. As per DMG, if you use the Spell Points system, you can not create an additional 6th or 7th spell slot. The Sorcerous Arcanum grants the Sorcerer the ability to create an additional 6th and 7th level spell slot as any other full spell caster.

That in summation why there is no chart of converting Sorcery Points to Spell points, and vice versa.

 

[ScuroNotte]

Some good ideas here, the increase in spells known is about where I would put it if I was going to increase their number of spells known.

At first I thought you'd given them to many metamagics but then I saw that you created extra metamagics that could be chosen.

Not too fond of one of the 20th level capstone choices, if you want to increase the number of metamagics that can be applied to a spell then just increase it rather than saying that they have to choose at least one from column A.

Thanks for the compliment. It's still a work in progress.

The reason for making one of the capstones select one metamagic from column A and B is to try to prevent a potential OP scenario such as using Empower and Heightened or Twinned.

Edit: I also disagree with the hit die increase and the training in armour. I don't think the class needs it.

The reason for the HD, light armor, and weapons as a bard is what I envision a sorcerer to be. They are forced to adventure and must learn to survive while trying to learn their power. Until they can grasp the power, they need to learn other abilities to protect themselves.
It's a personal preference and I do completely understand that the majority of players would agree with your view.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I do have a thematic issue. For me, adding more spells known is the exact wrong way to go. Sorcerers differentiate themselves from wizards by being able to twist and manipulate their talents in ways wizards can't, wizards have a wideness of arcane knowledge but can only cast them one way. Making sorcerers more like wizards makes them less interesting as a separate class.

Wizards have access to all known spells, they can have more known spells prepared, and can change them after a long rest. The number is still low as well as not being able to change them is restrictive. The current number known is just restrictive for me and for others as well. I also find it troublesome that in comparing classes, a 1/3 spell caster knows 2 less spells than a sorcerer while their spells are to compliment their main class features. A Sorcerer's main feature is spells and the metamagics are supposed to compliment their spells.

I know there are many who share your opinion. I can't fathom what the consensus is among players, but a 50/50 split is not outrageous calculation of who prefers 15 spells known to a higher number. There are many who disagree of giving an increase in number known, but add archetype bonus spells. There is no way to make all happy, but if others like the core class I am presenting, I would take that as a huge success in my endaever.

Also, I guess you can have 2 versions as they are planning to do with the ranger. The ranger will be use the PHB version or the new one. If my version is appealing, one can always say select the 15 or 22 known spells.

Now, you extended out metamagic with a lot more options and I'm loving that. Want to do other odd things like low level spells automatically are upcast because the sorcerer is the master of what they do know? Okay. Maybe being able to apply two metamagics at high levels. I'd even be open to creative but costly ways to circumvent one concentration slot or other things that break some of the fundamental rules that the other casters follow.

I'm much rather see a sorcerer getting more choices of metamagic options and some more powerful twists to spells, not something that makes them more like other casters.

I like the high-level limitations on spell slots - that keeps 5e expectations in place, and from the varied level playtests we did with the DMG spell point options, that's a very good thing.

That is why I chose using the Spell Points system for Sorcerers as it makes them different by making them more flexible in creating spell slots. Additionally, to make it different from the DMG version, they can cast an additional 6th and 7th level spell slot as though they had been using spell slots as a normal spell caster.

Oh, some specific points to address:

Arcane Spell Twist means you can always land your spell. Going to a non-scaling save with your scaling DC gets closer and closer to auto-fail at higher levels. Doing something like twisting one Hypnotic Patterns and near-guarantee to take multiple foes out of the combat for an extended time for 3 SP is just too good. Plus I don't how how I am narrating some spell / new-save combinations. This one is just too good. Maybe 3 SP for one target to have disadvantage on a save.

Divide spell has much more of a drawback on damage dealing spells then anything else. Battlefield control spells and other debuffs are at full force. Heck, mass heals if you're a Divine Soul aren't reduced. I'd remove the damage penalty and just note that if the areas overlap they don't double-affect.

I agree that Arcane Twist needs to be scaled back or eliminated. I need to reword it as the intention is to affect only 1 creature and only for the first save. My mistake.

Divide spell has a huge drawback in damage. That is the intent as then it would basically allow a player to cast 2 fireballs at full strength. Even if it can't overlap, I think it would be OP. It would be like having another full caster in the group.

Level 20 caps are supposed to be outrageous, but a lot that are really powerful are for a limited use per day. This one is over the top. Plus having ALL metamagic multiplied by all of your spells known multiplied AGAIN by all of the column A metamagics since you can do them and any other is a lot of options and will probably slow down play.

I'll look it over and correct the wording but there is no intention of being able to apply all metamagics on 1 spell. The options are
You know all the metamagics.---- Not use all of them.
I hope that clears that option up.