Homosexuality in your games

[Janx]

I can't give Hobo XP because I already liked something else he said.

I've played one female PC in my 20 some years of gaming, and it was a minor side character. The rest were all males. Does that make me sexist?

I've never played a black character. Does that make me racist?


It's not right to be mean to people in general, and specifically not because of their race, gender or gender preference. (Exception, it is always OK to be mean to Nazi's. We went to war with them because they were evil).

It'd be great if we can get society to general apathy on other people's status. I should not care that you are black, gay or whatever.

It should not be a social requirement that because you like gay, that I must also like gay.

That's like saying I have to like carrots because other people like carrots. Nonsense.

Because of differing preferences, apathy toward others' preferences is best. I don't care what you like, and I won't force my preferences on you. And you will do the same to the best of both of our abilities.

Bear in mind, Gay is not like carrots. Asking me to try carrots because you like them is not the same as asking me to try Gay.

As such, while I've made a gamut of the classes and races in the PH, I should not be required or judged for not having made a gamut of all the genders, gender preferences, and personality types (i've never played a Racist, should I try that?).

 

[Janx]

I doubt that. Except for the groups I had with children in them, sex was always a factor in one way or the other. And if it is just the barbarian stuck in the brothel again so we had to drag him out.

It influences the game in some way = serious enough for me.

I did throw in some qualifiers in my original post, including the part you quoted.

You example is as such. I said "not in a serious way" and your example is of such sex jokery.

While you and somebody else have posted some examples of serious romance/sex-related role playing (and I don't mean kinky, just playing PCs doing serious stuff in that topic), most of us just make dirty jokes and move on back to killing stuff.

Few people role play out trying to impress the bar maid, bringing her flowers, taking her on a first date to the waterfalls down by the lake. Sliding your hand up....

Those details don't happen in most games. I'm generalizing, but I think I have a reasonable sense of how most people work in this case. That scene would have become awkward and quickly turned into a joke for many groups, probably a sizable majority.

 

[Leviatham]

I'll probably step in something now that this can of worms is open.

It's going to take awhile before the world, or at least some chunk of it doesn't objectify women and have gender preference bias issues. I'd say society is slowly getting there. As one congressman admitted on why he changed his stance on gays, his kids told him "it doesn't matter anymore."

Sounds like a pretty sensible quote to me!

For some folks, once they get the message that they don't have to hate gays or whatever, they are OK. to them, it was just a source of tasteless jokes.

I spose that sucks if you were the butt of those jokes or worse, but that's humanity.

Sorry, but that excuse of "it's just humanity" I can't accept. That implies that I have just to sit down and take it because, hey, that's just humanity. And also implies that anyone and everyone would have to put up with other unpleasantness and idiocy because it's just humanity.

Sorry, but that's not good enough.

That said, it's one thing to accept gay people, it's another to sit through another player trying to gay up an NPC.

And what is the point. Why is it another to sit through another player trying to gay up an NPC? Why does it have to weigh differently than doing it in a straight NPC?

I suppose gay folks aren't entertained by straight relations either.

Overall we don't care. We're used to it.

But then, most players I ever played with past high school aren't trying to sex up anybody in the game. We're there to kill monsters, take their stuff, quip one liners, look bad-ass, and avenge the loss of fictional love ones to show our emotional side.

to us un-enlightened folk, gay is about sex. Since we don't do sex in our games, gay also isn't in our games.

And that once again shows the unawareness of gay issues and relationships. Being gay is not just about sex. It's about attractions, motivations, desires and the way to face and grow within those. One doesn't have to have sex to be gay.

That's got nothing to do with not picking on gay people, letting them hold hands in public, get married, and all the other stuff they want to do that other people get to do.

As I've generalized and like Dave Barry, I don't care, there are plenty of folks who do have these elements in their games. Good for them. There's probably some of them that are just creepy, some are just honest explorations of character, and others just good acting.

But I'm betting there's lots of people who just don't get into that stuff in their RPGs. And that shouldn't be seen as being anti-gay. Sex is a private topic, at best reserved for bad jokes. As such, most RPG groups don't go near the topic in any serious way.

I am not seeing it as anti-gay. If someone tells me "I don't want gay characters in my campaign" that's anti-gay. To be told "I've just never considered it" that's not anti-gay. That simply reflects unawareness, which is understandable.

 

[Umbran]

There doesn't seem to be a middle level like there is in our real world in which if you're gay you're just nothing out of the ordinary, you just happen to feel attracted to the same gender. Big deal!

Please, tell us where in our real world is there a place in which if you're gay you're just nothing out of the ordinary! I know a lot of people who'd love to move there.

The very fact that it becomes an issue in your games is pretty proof positive that it is still out of the ordinary, a "big deal" in our real world. There may well be places and groups for which is isn't an issue. But, as a culture, the place in our real world you describe doesn't exist.

But then, to be honest, I think my group wouldn't be big on anyone making a major in-game issue of their character's sexual desires. There is one romance between two PCs in my game, but it is really a *romance* - about emotion, not about sex. It helps that the setting is Victorian, so that holding hands is about as torrid as it will get, publicly.

Why are we readier to accept and/or play a female character than a transgender or a gay one?Are we really as open minded and tolerant as we like to believe?

I don't know of folks are as hypocritical as you make it out to be. I find a lot of folks around here aren't big on people playing cross-gender. Not because of any hang-ups, though, but just because most folks do it so badly.

 

[Yora]

I don't think such things ever come up in the games I run and play. The players don't start anything with their PCs, unless they are a couple themselves, and I certainly won't participate in any NPC romances as the GM. ^^

Like in real life, 99% of the time it really doesn't matter at all.

 

[Leviatham]

Because we're more familiar with the concept. Because it's a better fit for the character we envision.

And what stops you from envisioning a gay character? That is my point. Why do you have no problem feeling familiar with a female character but you don't feel as familiar with a gay one?

I'm exactly as open minded and tolerant as I'd like to believe. I think.

Aren't we all?

Self-perception is very, very deceptive.

I think the notion that "we should make a push to include more gay PCs in our games, because otherwise we're not open minded or tolerant" is a bit silly, though.

I have not made a case for that push, though. And I haven't said we're not open minded. I have question if, since we don't feel as familiar playing a gay character as we do playing a female one (as you pointed out) we are *as* open minded as we think we are. I know we are open minded as a whole (exceptions everywhere), but as much as we think? I doubt it!

You'd be hard pressed to make a credible claim that preferring to play certain types of characters (and not others) is equivalent to not being open minded or tolerant. If you're not respecting their preferences, then you're intolerant. If you're not careful, you aren't far from saying that having sexual preferences of any kind at all makes us close-minded or intolerant. After all, preferences are preferences. Nobody else telling me what I should prefer (for whatever reason) is likely to make that change.

To me, being open-minded and tolerant is absolutely hinged on letting players play the kinds of PCs that they want to play, and rolling with it no matter what they pick, rather than trying to force some kind of artificial tokenism, or something.

And again I am not arguing any of those points. I am not saying people *should* play a type of character or another and I am not saying that playing a type of character or another makes you narrow minded (though it could be the case, of course).

What I am saying is that we don't consider playing that type of characters when they're available and that is for a reason. Discomfort and unawareness probably being the most likely

 

[Leviatham]

I can't give Hobo XP because I already liked something else he said.

I've played one female PC in my 20 some years of gaming, and it was a minor side character. The rest were all males. Does that make me sexist?

I've never played a black character. Does that make me racist?

Not really. Unless you're pro actively avoiding those characters, no. And I'm not implying you do, btw.

It's not right to be mean to people in general, and specifically not because of their race, gender or gender preference. (Exception, it is always OK to be mean to Nazi's. We went to war with them because they were evil).

Hear hear!

It'd be great if we can get society to general apathy on other people's status. I should not care that you are black, gay or whatever.

It should not be a social requirement that because you like gay, that I must also like gay.

That's like saying I have to like carrots because other people like carrots. Nonsense.

Because of differing preferences, apathy toward others' preferences is best. I don't care what you like, and I won't force my preferences on you. And you will do the same to the best of both of our abilities.

Bear in mind, Gay is not like carrots. Asking me to try carrots because you like them is not the same as asking me to try Gay.

As such, while I've made a gamut of the classes and races in the PH, I should not be required or judged for not having made a gamut of all the genders, gender preferences, and personality types (i've never played a Racist, should I try that?).

Two things, this not a judgement, is a question about awareness and the reasons for the lack of awareness.

It is also a question about how much comfort/discomfort one feels playing gay characters. Being uncomfortable doesn't mean you're homophobic.

As for playing a racist character. Try! I found it to be one of the most uncomfortable situations of my life.

 

[Herschel]

Robert Sullivan, aka The Grumpy Celt, shot an interesting video in which he proved, categorically, that most of the poses used in cartoons to depict women just look silly. As soon as a man adopt the pose of one of those females, he just looks stupid. And yet, not everyone would see those images of women as stupid.

I'd posit it's because it's so easy for us guys to look dumb.

How many people don't bother exploring what having a gay character would be like?

I don't generally ever explore my character's sexuality, I just don't feel it usually belongs at the table. It tends to take up a lot of spotlight time that really doesn't add much of anything to the group experience outside of taudry jokes.

I have no problems dicussing dating and relationships with anyone straight or LGBT outside the game, regardless of subject. The game's just not where I like to explore those topics.

How many people are still scared of trying that out? And how much mockery and stupid banter do you have to put up with if you do?

You haven't considered playing a gay character but you have considered playing a female one. Why?

Because the reason I generally play a female character is because I have a really cool miniature that happens to be female I want to use.

Are we really as open minded and tolerant as we like to believe?

In many cases, no, but in some cases some of us really never explore that side of our characters.

 

[racoffin]

What I am saying is that we don't consider playing that type of characters when they're available and that is for a reason. Discomfort and unawareness probably being the most likely

What I've run across in games I've participated in is that many are either unwilling to play a particular type of character (gay, bi, trans, racist, ugly, fat, whatever) because they are worried that someone in the group/game will see it as a parody or attack rather than an actual attempt to play a real character.

Then there are those that do play the character as a full tilt parody/stereotype: fat people have to be enormous, gay characters are super flaming, racists are only of the violent variety and so on.

It's hard to play something that you are not familiar with except in the broad strokes. There are dozens of guides for elves and orks and the like, but few for playing that perfect Racist or Gay or whatever character.

 

[the Jester]

I'll speak to this from three perspectives: a dm's perspective on gay pcs; a dm's perspective on gay/bisexual/not-strictly-hetero stuff in worldbuilding; and a player's perspective.

I am a dm far more often than I'm a player. I've been the primary dm in my groups since about 1986 or 1987. I have seen a fair number of homosexual pcs over the years, though far fewer gay males than lesbians or bisexual females (hello adolescent boy wish fulfillment!). Sex comes up in my game, though infrequently; I'm one of those dms who will follow where the pcs lead, so...

Anyway, my players, at least post high school, have pretty much always been okay with gay characters, though they have at times made light of them. Gay pcs are sometimes stereotypes (the flamboyant flamer), especially as you go further back in time to when we were all younger and less mature, but sometimes their gayness is just one component of a more rounded and realized character.

I've also seen pcs with more ambiguous gender identities; one pc got switched from one gender to another like four times over the years, so he (as the pc was at the end) became a little sexually confused. And so forth.

As a dm, when I worldbuild, I like my cultures to make sense and be distinct. Some races or cultures are homophobic; others are completely baffled by the whole notion of "sexual preference". Elves are biologically prone to omnisexuality; the main issue in elven culture IMC is one of consent. So an elf might mate with a creature of either gender and of any sentient species; hi there eager unicorn!

Likewise, the Peshan culture IMC is open and accepting of homosexuality and bisexuality, but there is a strict social code involving veils and scarves through which one announces one's preferences, interests, etc.

OTOH there are homophobic cultures, too (the dwarves are notorious for shaming and dishonoring their homosexuals; one group of pcs dealt with this because they had a good friend dwarf cleric npc who was gay, whose father got them to help arrange a marriage for his son for political reasons). There are warrior brotherhoods that include a "Keep your brothers warm at night" ethic. There are cultures that do their best to never acknowledge sex at all; they treat marriage as a business transaction and keep the sex in the bedroom at night, with no light or talking about it, ever.

So basically, I like to have a variety of sexual and identity mores depending on the race and culture.

As a player- and I hardly play, almost always dm- I can't recall a gay pc that I've played off hand, though one Warhammer pc I had was a kind of effete, bisexual dissipated aristocrat. He died before his sexuality ever came up in play, alas.

But as to why it's easier to conceive a female pc (as a male player) than a gay pc (as a straight player): About 50% of all characters are female, while far fewer are gay. That's all I got. I don't usually start with sexual preference when I make a pc; it emerges from the overall narrative of the character. I've got nothing against gay pcs, and have had plenty of gay, bi or weirdly sexual preferenced npcs. (What do you call the guy who can only get off with undead?) But as an occasional player, I simply don't recall it coming up as of yet.