Hospitaler of Torm

[Caliban]

Tell that to the poor fighters who still only get 1 feat every 2 levels when they're 9th, 12th or 15th level.

At those levels the fighters have an accumulation of feats. Completing two or three feat chains can be more effective than the individual feats. The Hospitaler won't have that option because the three feats required to qualify are not part of the same feat chain.

But even with that, at higher levels the spellcasters still dominate, even in 3e. Most of the melee classes are just one saving throw away from being taken out of a fight, unless they get some very good (and expensive) defensive magic items.

Yes, however I don't recall that being used as a rationale for bumping up the class abilities. IOW, the paladin is balanced without reference to the truth-justice-and-yummy-goodness roleplaying requirements.

I think that's debatable. But even so, for the Hospitaler of Torm, the roleplaying limitations (i.e. giving away most of their cash and hunting Cyric and Bane worshipers) are specifically to balance one advantage: The enhanced weapon/armor (which they otherwise would not have the option of getting on their own). It seems like a good match to me.

The other stuff is balanced by losing their Turn Undead progression, which is another ability that becomes very powerful at higher levels.

 

[hong]

Note that there aren't that many feat chains that take more than 2-3 feats to complete, and of these, their utility outside a few specific scenarios is debatable. I'm thinking of Whirlwind Attack and Spirited Charge in particular.

All I'm basically saying is that the class is 99% okay as is. The only point of difference is over the three bonus feats. If you didn't have these feats, a player who was thinking of going down this route would probably still feel quite happy taking this class. I don't think they're really necessary, either to make up for any power shortfalls, or to entice players. I'd rather err on the conservative side, all things considered.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think that's debatable. But even so, for the Hospitaler of Torm, the roleplaying limitations (i.e. giving away most of their cash and hunting Cyric and Bane worshipers) are specifically to balance one advantage: The enhanced weapon/armor (which they otherwise would not have the option of getting on their own). It seems like a good match to me.

That's interesting but I'm not sure that the vow of humility would really prevent the Hospitaller's from getting the enhanced weapons/armor without having it as a class ability. Since the vow is giving up wealth in excess of what is necessary to equip the Hospitaller and his/her mount, it really would come down to how you allow it to be played.

For instance, the party defeats a group of bad guys. The total sale value of the loot taken is 15,000 gp. (Not really over the top--that's a typical treasure for my group in a couple sessions of RttToEE at 5th/6th level). This loot includes a suit of masterwork fullplate and a magic greatsword (+1). Odds are that the Hospitaller to be claims the fullplate as 800 gp of what would otherwise be his share and the greatsword as 1175 of his share. There's still 1825 gold left in his share. 1000 of that goes to a local abjurer to enchant the fullplate to +1 and another 300 goes for a potion of See Invisibility to deal with the assassin who keeps dogging the party and then fleeing invisibly. 250 gp. goes for diamond dust so that the Hospitaller is able to cast restoration and the wizard is able to cast stoneskin if either of them are needed. The Hospitaller keeps 150 gp to pay for any unforseen expenses (saddles, inns, clothes, feeding the poor, etc.) That leaves 125 gp plus the value of the Hospitaller's old armor which is sold since it's no longer necessary to keep him equipped. (The old weapon is kept since even magic weapons get sundered and it's always good to have a backup).

In this case, the requirement to donate excess wealth resulted in very little penalty to the Hospitaller.

It might be more of a penalty if the Hospitaller already had +1 fullplate and a magic sword, but even then odds are that he/she would spend 3000 gp of his share to upgrade the fullplate to +2 fullplate (or perhaps he would trade all of his loot and some of his goods and equipment to the party wizard to get him to upgrade it to +1 Fire Resistance (and, according to the wording of your armor blessings, the Fire Resistance quality would remain on the armor--even when it was enhanced to +3 medium fortification). All told, I expect that the Hospitaller will not find that requirement so burdensome as to deny him the possibility of upgrading his arms and armor which seems to be your assumption here.

 

[Caliban]

That's interesting but I'm not sure that the vow of humility would really prevent the Hospitaller's from getting the enhanced weapons/armor without having it as a class ability. Since the vow is giving up wealth in excess of what is necessary to equip the Hospitaller and his/her mount, it really would come down to how you allow it to be played.

For instance, the party defeats a group of bad guys. The total sale value of the loot taken is 15,000 gp. (Not really over the top--that's a typical treasure for my group in a couple sessions of RttToEE at 5th/6th level). This loot includes a suit of masterwork fullplate and a magic greatsword (+1). Odds are that the Hospitaller to be claims the fullplate as 800 gp of what would otherwise be his share and the greatsword as 1175 of his share. There's still 1825 gold left in his share. 1000 of that goes to a local abjurer to enchant the fullplate to +1 and another 300 goes for a potion of See Invisibility to deal with the assassin who keeps dogging the party and then fleeing invisibly. 250 gp. goes for diamond dust so that the Hospitaller is able to cast restoration and the wizard is able to cast stoneskin if either of them are needed. The Hospitaller keeps 150 gp to pay for any unforseen expenses (saddles, inns, clothes, feeding the poor, etc.) That leaves 125 gp plus the value of the Hospitaller's old armor which is sold since it's no longer necessary to keep him equipped. (The old weapon is kept since even magic weapons get sundered and it's always good to have a backup).

In this case, the requirement to donate excess wealth resulted in very little penalty to the Hospitaller.

It might be more of a penalty if the Hospitaller already had +1 fullplate and a magic sword, but even then odds are that he/she would spend 3000 gp of his share to upgrade the fullplate to +2 fullplate (or perhaps he would trade all of his loot and some of his goods and equipment to the party wizard to get him to upgrade it to +1 Fire Resistance (and, according to the wording of your armor blessings, the Fire Resistance quality would remain on the armor--even when it was enhanced to +3 medium fortification). All told, I expect that the Hospitaller will not find that requirement so burdensome as to deny him the possibility of upgrading his arms and armor which seems to be your assumption here.

Since this class is for a home game I'm running, I have a pretty good idead of that they can expect for wealth from their bad guys, and it's not nearly as much as you are proposing.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Fair enough.

Since this class is for a home game I'm running, I have a pretty good idead of that they can expect for wealth from their bad guys, and it's not nearly as much as you are proposing.