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House Rule: Karma Points

Dayspire

Explorer
Or Luck Points, Hero Points, what have you.

I’ve been unhappy with how action points work in 4E, so I decided to work on a house rule that ‘fixes’ my own problem with it. I included in this system a way to help players add bonuses to poor rolls as well. I’m looking for useful comments or suggestions of all kinds, but particularly in regards to the ‘costs’ found below (for instance, how powerful is an encounter power refresh compared to an action point?).

Karma Points
Karma Points are a new resource intended to give players a greater control over their own heroism. It can mean that characters are slightly more powerful than those found in a 4E game that doesn’t use the system. A DM who finds that the players now walk over any opposition should count the characters as one level higher when estimating encounter difficulty. The system takes some aspects of action points found in 3.5 Eberron, but merges it with the model from 4E. Here are the highlights for Karma Points:

Replaces Action Points
Part of the problem with Action Points is they’re dependably boring. You can only use one every encounter. You gain one every other encounter. There are times when the smart player will use an Action Point because it’s the tactically smart thing to do – not because it’s needed, or even thematically interesting. But don’t worry – the Karma Point system allows for the mimicking of Action Points. This is important for various Paragon, Feat and Class abilities that utilize that mechanic. It should also be noted that particularly thrifty and well-played characters might even be able to use an Action Point every encounter – or even twice!

Assumes and Rewards Role-Playing
The system will only work if the players are involved and interested in role-playing. Those who are uninvolved will find themselves at a mechanical loss with this system. But even the truly near dead at the game table will only find themselves with less equivalent Action Points than their more active peers. Of course, this begs the question to those players – why are you at my table?

Persistent
Karma Points are not lost or reset from session to session. You can have as many as you wish, and there is no maximum amount that can be saved. This means you can be miserly with your Karma, spending it only on those situations that you consider important. Whether thrifty or free with your Karma, you can count on those points never being ‘lost’ – only used.

Undependable
You’ll never know how much Karma you’ve saved up, as it is tracked by the DM. This prevents Karma from being an easily quantifiable resource you can always count on. At the least, you can be sure to have enough Karma to duplicate an Action Point every other encounter (assuming a typical level of player involvement).

Gives An Edge
There are times when you need a little help. You miss your Daily in the final confrontation with your arch-nemesis; you fail to make a perception roll when you just know a rogue is lurking; you fail a death saving throw after being taken out by a kobold. While some of these situations can be interesting, they have a tendency to make the player feel very anti-heroic. Karma Points can add to a particular roll, but only when they want it. But tied to this aspect of Karma Points are the fact they’re undependable – you’ll never quite know if you have enough in the karma well. You can ensure you have some, by using them sparingly – but that edge may not always be there when you require it – thus still allowing a feeling of randomness.

How they can be Earned
Karma Points can be earned by only one means: Making the story interesting and fun for everyone. Descriptive (but fast!) combat actions, making your character more ‘human’, being involved in roleplaying situations. Feel free to prompt the DM with ‘karma?’ whenever you perform an action you think might deserve a point or two. But a wise DM’s response should be a subtle nod and pencil mark – whether you truly received any Karma should be known only by him or her.

+1 to +3 KP: Per Combat Encounter, earned by describing each action with both speed and style. Utilizing scenery also helps. Fast and simple descriptors are better than slow and complex ones.

+1 KP: Per Roleplaying Encounter or Skill Challenge that you participate in.

+1 KP: For any type of writing you do for the game

+1 KP: Playing your character leads to a voluntary minor situational drawback. Example: “Yeah, I know we’re supposed to wear a mask to this party. I’m not going to though – my religion specifically forbids the wearing of masks.”; “Yes, I spend the night with the handmaiden. Despite knowing that the king and his men are watching us, I can’t resist!”

+2 KP: Playing your character leads to a major situational drawback. Example: “We need to negotiate that treaty with the eladrin. Unfortunately Adaris hates their race, so despite having the highest Diplomacy he’s going to refuse to speak to them. Instead, he’ll just glare.”; “When the baron smirks at Tykiir, I slap him. There, in front of the court and everyone. No one says such a thing to my friends.”

+2 KP: Playing your character leads to a minor mechanical penalty. Example: “I’m not going to use that +1 Sword. I figure it’s probably cursed, being formerly wielded by the undead king – who knows what he was cursed by?”; “Remember when I burned my hands on that trap? I figure I should have a penalty to climb that wall now.”

+4 KP: Playing your character leads to a major mechanical penalty. Example: “Barthas is deathly afraid of dragons, as we all know. I’m going to consider him Weakened against the dragon for the first 4 rounds." ;“Uhhh… My character is freaked out by encountering his now vampiric mother. I’m not going to attack her. At all. Ever.”

How They Can Be Spent

-1 KP: A bonus of +1d6 to any single d20 dice roll. There is no maximum amount that can be applied to a roll, but all the dice that are to be used must be rolled at the same time, and before the resolution is declared by the DM.

-4 KP: Refresh an Encounter Power. May only be done once per session.

-4 KP: Take an extra Standard Action. For all intents and purposes, this counts as an Action Point for any power or ability that requires one be spent. This may be used up to twice per encounter, although the second use costs double (-8 KP). This may not be used on a character’s first turn in combat, and must occur before or after a character’s turn (in order to prevent massive alpha strikes!).

I can think of quite a few other ways to spend Karma (magic item use refresh, for example), but I wanted to put this first draft up for folks to look at. Again, any useful comments or suggestions is appreciated!
 

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Alex319

First Post
Definitely seems like a cool idea.

With the "bonus to any d20 dice roll" use of the power, do you get to choose whether to use it before or after you roll the initial d20? (It says "all the dice must be rolled at the same time" but I assume that just means the dice from the bonus if you spend more than one KP on it, right?)
 

Dayspire

Explorer
Definitely seems like a cool idea.

With the "bonus to any d20 dice roll" use of the power, do you get to choose whether to use it before or after you roll the initial d20? (It says "all the dice must be rolled at the same time" but I assume that just means the dice from the bonus if you spend more than one KP on it, right?)
After the d20 roll, but before the DM announces the result. Most of the time, you know if you're close to hitting, and adding a d6 or two might make the difference. That's what this option is for. The "all the dice must be rolled at the same time" is so that the game isn't bogged down by, "I spend a KP, and roll a d6. Hmm, I got a 1. Ok, I'll spend another. Crap, another 1. Ok, I spend another..." ad infinitum. I try and keep my games moving fast, so this bit was intentional.
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
I hope you don't mind constructive criticism. I really don't like the system and I explain why below, but feel free to ignore it if you think it's too negative. I can post a follow-up if you want suggestions on how I would consider improving it (based on my comments).



What is your 'own problem?' Is it boring? That's what you seem to say, yet you don't actually try to solve this problem.

Persistence = nova, and that's bad for the game in most people's opinion. What does this have to do with boring?

Undependable essentially means trust the DM. That might be fine, the other consequence is that it doesn't tell the player what behavior gets rewarded and what doesn't. Undependable also doesn't equate to exciting IMO, it equates more to frustration when I can't understand why the DM didn't give me a karma point last session.

"gives and edge" - I don't agree that needing a little help means that it's boring. Sometimes missing with your daily or failing a saving throw is the opposite of boring. So, how does this solve your problem?

How they're earned - This is almost self-fulfilling. Karma points are more exciting than action points just because you say so. I'm not sure I buy that. What makes this worse is that you actually recommend prodding the DM for a reward and then not reinforce a particular behavior. This is exactly the opposite teaching method anyone would ever suggest you use, so really it's a bad idea.

The DMG goes into a little bit of detail of different players' styles. This one clearly promotes one style above all others and in fact makes it a huge arms race. And, not in a good way. Instead of people being comfortable at the game table, some will be severely hampered unless they change their personality.

I especially don't like the major mechanical penalty. That has huge problems with it. The players "role-playing" mechanical decisions has a massive impact on the encounter. Suddenly, your level +2 or +3 encounter that you carefully planned out is level +5 because one of the PC's ups and leaves. Wtf? I strongly discourage this one.

This amounts to a lot of tracking for the DM. That IMO adds to boredom, not takes from it.
 

almuric

First Post
I've done something similar for the campaign I just started. See here: Parow Campaign Info - Role-play Points

I didn't do away with action points, in fact I give everyone an action point at the start of each encounter, so it's an extra thing. Look at the 'House Rules' link from the link above to see more on that. We've only had one session so far, so I can't really speak to how well my new system works overall. The extra action points does lead people to build characters that are focused on action points, which could be unbalancing, especially if only one or two characters are built that way and everyone else is wondering why those guys are much more effective.

There's no way I'd track the role-play points for the players, though. I've given them the rules for what to turn them in for and each player knows how many he has. (I've been looking for something physical to give out - I'm thinking poker chips. Something for Action Points too, so they'll remember to spend it.) I think there's a lot that can be done here to make the game more exciting. On my part, I think it will make the characters slightly more powerful and I think I should make each encounter one level higher to compensate. It's a work-in-progress and I imagine I'll be tweaking it often along the way.

I wouldn't want to give out these RPP for the players making the encounters harder, though. Just for making the sesssions more fun.
 

Dayspire

Explorer
I hope you don't mind constructive criticism. I really don't like the system and I explain why below, but feel free to ignore it if you think it's too negative. I can post a follow-up if you want suggestions on how I would consider improving it (based on my comments).
Criticism is always welcome, of course! And it's only the negative kind that spurs someone to improve something, right?

What is your 'own problem?' Is it boring? That's what you seem to say, yet you don't actually try to solve this problem.
Yes, I should have stated that more clearly, but I sort of buried it in the text. My primary problem with action points are that they are too dependable (and the example I give where a player uses it simply because he knows he's about to get another - against a single goblin - is a real-life example). You must understand I am coming from a more cinematic position. The games I run should move fast, it should flow smoothly, there should great pacing, no slow beats, etc. I run my game in Eberron, which is flavored with a pulp type of action that I like. The use of an action point is when the hero goes that extra mile or gives his efforts just a little more of a push. This is when you see the hero grit his teeth and plunge ahead! The way I've seen them used (and admittedly, in my own group) doesn't always reflect the narrative need of an action point, but rather the mechanical necessity. That, to me - is boring.

Persistence = nova, and that's bad for the game in most people's opinion. What does this have to do with boring?
Hmm, I'm honestly not sure what you mean here.

Undependable essentially means trust the DM. That might be fine, the other consequence is that it doesn't tell the player what behavior gets rewarded and what doesn't. Undependable also doesn't equate to exciting IMO, it equates more to frustration when I can't understand why the DM didn't give me a karma point last session.
What behavior gets rewarded and what doesn't get rewarded should be fairly obvious - the list above is fairly clear, I think. It all boils down to 'stay involved', honestly. And being 'undependable' doesn't by itself add excitement. One of my main thrusts is that I want to a) model a form of luck, which is never totally reliable; b) avoid conversations where players insist that they should get a Karma Point, and I as the DM don't think they should. The frustration you mention would be avoided, to be sure. And trust the DM? Yes, there's quite a bit here to that. But also, to be perfectly frank this part is one area I'm unsure of.

"gives and edge" - I don't agree that needing a little help means that it's boring. Sometimes missing with your daily or failing a saving throw is the opposite of boring. So, how does this solve your problem?
No no - I think that constantly failing at one's encounter and daily powers due to the randomness of dice can make a player feel unheroic. Looking at the numbers, no one will have the Karma Points to constantly ensure that they meet the requisite to-hit rolls, it's just not possible. This is meant to offset really poor rollers, or to try and pull through in the clutch. And the player does it at a cost - someone who uses this function of Karma Points often probably won't be able to 'buy' an action point.

How they're earned - This is almost self-fulfilling. Karma points are more exciting than action points just because you say so. I'm not sure I buy that. What makes this worse is that you actually recommend prodding the DM for a reward and then not reinforce a particular behavior. This is exactly the opposite teaching method anyone would ever suggest you use, so really it's a bad idea.

The DMG goes into a little bit of detail of different players' styles. This one clearly promotes one style above all others and in fact makes it a huge arms race. And, not in a good way. Instead of people being comfortable at the game table, some will be severely hampered unless they change their personality.
Well, as I stated - if you're not into roleplaying or being involved - why are you at my table? If by using this theoretical system I will turn off those players who tend to sit there, remain quiet, and roll dice when prodded - that's a consequence I'll be happy to take. I don't have that problem - my players are involved, thankfully. They speak up and enjoy roleplaying situations equally well as they appreciate combat. This will reward them for their current behavior, and if they want to go the extra mile - give them great rewards.

I especially don't like the major mechanical penalty. That has huge problems with it. The players "role-playing" mechanical decisions has a massive impact on the encounter. Suddenly, your level +2 or +3 encounter that you carefully planned out is level +5 because one of the PC's ups and leaves. Wtf? I strongly discourage this one.
Perhaps. This one should be a rarity, I would think. Situations where your mother is a vampire should only come up once. :) When a player wants a penalty like this, it probably ties in to his background very, very deeply.

This amounts to a lot of tracking for the DM. That IMO adds to boredom, not takes from it.
Oh, I've recently gone all digital in my DMing. Tracking things like this would be a non-issue, and I'm never bored with my game or players.

You did bring up some good points! I'd love to hear your suggestions as well.
 

Dayspire

Explorer
I've done something similar for the campaign I just started. See here: Parow Campaign Info - Role-play Points

I didn't do away with action points, in fact I give everyone an action point at the start of each encounter, so it's an extra thing. Look at the 'House Rules' link from the link above to see more on that. We've only had one session so far, so I can't really speak to how well my new system works overall. The extra action points does lead people to build characters that are focused on action points, which could be unbalancing, especially if only one or two characters are built that way and everyone else is wondering why those guys are much more effective.

There's no way I'd track the role-play points for the players, though. I've given them the rules for what to turn them in for and each player knows how many he has. (I've been looking for something physical to give out - I'm thinking poker chips. Something for Action Points too, so they'll remember to spend it.) I think there's a lot that can be done here to make the game more exciting. On my part, I think it will make the characters slightly more powerful and I think I should make each encounter one level higher to compensate. It's a work-in-progress and I imagine I'll be tweaking it often along the way.

I wouldn't want to give out these RPP for the players making the encounters harder, though. Just for making the sesssions more fun.
Interesting! I didn't think that my players might pick paragon/epic classes based upon a slightly more open action point schema. And thanks for that link, I may incorporate some of your ideas there.
 

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