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House-ruled monk class
- Thread starter 3d6
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CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
It seems very strong to me -- two levels give +3 to all saves, +2 base attack, a bonus feat, a large AC bonus (normally +4 to +8), and the highest light weapon damage in the game (heck, the highest finessable weapon damage in the game).
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems too good to me.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems too good to me.
Yeah, it is front-loaded. I'm not sure how to address that without leaving a 1st or 2nd level monk underpowered compared to other characters, though.
Right now, the idea is that a 1st level monk has the equivalent of a chain shirt and a bastard sword. Compared to a fighter, he gets +2 on Reflex saves, +2 on Will saves, and adds his Wisdom bonus to AC. In exchange, he loses the fighter bonus feat. It's not exactly fair, obviously, but I would like to keep the monk's save progression.
The variant monk's unarmed strike isn't a light weapon, BTW. It's a two-handed weapon in this variant. (I wanted a high base damage, but I didn't want people abusing that with two-weapon fighting).
Perhaps dropping Wisdom to AC (or gaining it at a later level) would help. Then the monk wouldn't be quite so front-loaded compared to a fighter or barbarian.
Update: I went ahead an changed the Wisdom to AC ability into another monk-specific feat, so now a character doesn't get it without a cost.
Right now, the idea is that a 1st level monk has the equivalent of a chain shirt and a bastard sword. Compared to a fighter, he gets +2 on Reflex saves, +2 on Will saves, and adds his Wisdom bonus to AC. In exchange, he loses the fighter bonus feat. It's not exactly fair, obviously, but I would like to keep the monk's save progression.
The variant monk's unarmed strike isn't a light weapon, BTW. It's a two-handed weapon in this variant. (I wanted a high base damage, but I didn't want people abusing that with two-weapon fighting).
Perhaps dropping Wisdom to AC (or gaining it at a later level) would help. Then the monk wouldn't be quite so front-loaded compared to a fighter or barbarian.
Update: I went ahead an changed the Wisdom to AC ability into another monk-specific feat, so now a character doesn't get it without a cost.
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CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
I'm having trouble thinking of ways to balance the class, because I don't think that I understand the purpose behind your redesign. What do you think monks should be like? This version looks a lot like the fighter, and with the abilities turned into feats I'd be tempted to go all the way: remove the monk class, add a "greater unarmed combat" feat, and let characters take the fighter class.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that a person might want to redo the monk class. In fact I did myself, and it wasn't that different in principle from your version -- many abilities granted from a selectable list (bonus feats or otherwise) in a regular progression. But my version probably wouldn't be of any use to you, since you'll have your own idea of what a monk should be like.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that a person might want to redo the monk class. In fact I did myself, and it wasn't that different in principle from your version -- many abilities granted from a selectable list (bonus feats or otherwise) in a regular progression. But my version probably wouldn't be of any use to you, since you'll have your own idea of what a monk should be like.
I'm going for "front-line melee fighter with mystical abilities", as opposed to the normal monk, which is "mobile weak melee fighter/wizard killer with mystical abilities".
I'm not actually sure that my version of the monk is all that much stronger than a regular monk. My monk gains full base attack bonuses, but gets far fewer class features.
A standard monk gets speed bonus, Wisdom bonus to AC, flurry of blows, evasion, still mind, ki strike (magic), slow fall, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, ki strike (lawful), diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, ki strike (adamantine), timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, empty body, perfect self, slow fall any distance, and three bonus feats, which is 24 class abilities (in addition to unarmed strike and AC bonus).
My monk has, in comparison, d10 hit dice, full base attack, and stronger versions of unarmed strike and AC bonus, but only 10 class abilities beyond unarmed strike and AC bonus. Also, the full base attack bonus is somewhat mitigated by losing the flurry of blows ability. One attack at +20 compared to two attacks at +15 isn't an easy choice, in my opinion.
I'm not actually sure that my version of the monk is all that much stronger than a regular monk. My monk gains full base attack bonuses, but gets far fewer class features.
A standard monk gets speed bonus, Wisdom bonus to AC, flurry of blows, evasion, still mind, ki strike (magic), slow fall, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, ki strike (lawful), diamond body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, ki strike (adamantine), timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, empty body, perfect self, slow fall any distance, and three bonus feats, which is 24 class abilities (in addition to unarmed strike and AC bonus).
My monk has, in comparison, d10 hit dice, full base attack, and stronger versions of unarmed strike and AC bonus, but only 10 class abilities beyond unarmed strike and AC bonus. Also, the full base attack bonus is somewhat mitigated by losing the flurry of blows ability. One attack at +20 compared to two attacks at +15 isn't an easy choice, in my opinion.
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CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
3d6 said:
Then I'd recommend my above solution: continue making monk abilities into feats as you've already done, and have people take the fighter class. Alternately, make a fighter varient that has slightly less selection in its bonus feats and gets unarmed damage abilities (just enough to keep competitive with manufactured weapons).
Creating a fighter variant with less selection in bonus feats and unarmed damage abilities is pretty much what I've done, isn't it?
Well, I suppose that "less selection" isn't quite what I've done, as there are so many monk-specific feats, but there are very few fighter bonus feats on the monk bonus feat list.
Well, I suppose that "less selection" isn't quite what I've done, as there are so many monk-specific feats, but there are very few fighter bonus feats on the monk bonus feat list.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
3d6 said:
Your monk:
AC bonus +4+Wis mod
Improved Unarmed Strike
Greater unarmed strike (c.f. proficiencies)
Wild Talent
10 feats
3 good saves
4 skill points per level
Fighter:
11 feats
1 good save
Proficiencies (c.f. greater unarmed strike)
2 skill points per level
It just seems over the top, rightly or wrongly.
A +4 bonus to AC seems to be similar in power to the ability to use armor and sheilds.
Improved Unarmed Strike plus greater unarmed strike isn't better, in my opinion, than proficiency with all martial weapons.
Both get 11 additional feats.
3 good saves and 4 skill points per level compared to 1 good save 2 skill points per level.
Hmm. That looks stronger than the fighter. On the other hand, the comparison I did above makes the variant monk look weaker than the normal monk, and I think the general consensus is that the monk is weaker than the fighter.
I'm not sure what to make of that.
Improved Unarmed Strike plus greater unarmed strike isn't better, in my opinion, than proficiency with all martial weapons.
Both get 11 additional feats.
3 good saves and 4 skill points per level compared to 1 good save 2 skill points per level.
Hmm. That looks stronger than the fighter. On the other hand, the comparison I did above makes the variant monk look weaker than the normal monk, and I think the general consensus is that the monk is weaker than the fighter.
I'm not sure what to make of that.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
3d6 said:
Well, I suppose all you can do is test it in your campaign and post the results here after a few sessions.
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