D&D 5E How Can A Party With So Many People Have So Many Needs! (Build Advice to Fill Said Needs)

[Aeradom]

To begin, I'm a newb here. And not just with 5th edition, but I've been out of the D&D game for a LONG time, like since before 4.0 came out. That being said, a lot of the basics I do still remember it's just I could use some help here. So a friend of mine said he was running a 5e game and invited me in. The game was a lot of fun incidentally, though I learned something pretty quickly. This party was one that liked to run in, hit stuff, and figure stuff out later. Well, that's a bit harsh I suppose, though from hearing of their past adventures, it's not too far off. Any who, with my assistance, we managed to resolve the first problem without blood shed by working out a trade deal with some giants for a valuable resource that was on their mountain. Afterwards we got to the actual fight and midway through I quickly realized how short on everything (except DPS) that the party was. Let me go ahead and break down the party:

1 Cleric who healed most of it (But will be leaving for college in two weeks)
1 Ranger DPS
1 Barbarian who splits Tanking/DPS duties
1 Monk DPS
1 Druid (Who wasn't around for most of the fight becuase she was sick)
1 Dual Wielding Fighter DPS
1 Paladin Tank/Off-Heal (That Was Me, I had to heal more than actual fight or tank though... the +4 to savings roll and the disadvantage to attack roll came in HANDY)
1 DPS NPC (Who was just there becuase the DM decided to through a CR 16 fight at the level 7 group).

So, after the fighting was done, I was met with quite some dismay that there were no dedicated spellcasters (the druid when comes back was more healing or going in for melee... though we're trying to get her to do more spellcasting though). Needless to say, I asked my DM if I could reroll to a Wizard or a Sorcerer (not considering Warlock as from the looks, there a melee mage and we have enough melee in the party) to be able to balance out the party. It's also important to note that the highest charisma is 14 and no one has any speech skills. Like I said, it's a party likes to kill stuff, and then ask questions.

Now to where I'm hoping the community can help: I'm looking for the most optimal way to use either a Sorcerer or Wizard to fill these three roles: Diviner, Face, Ranged DPS (Though, we may have enough melee DPS that this isn't as necessary but hey... I like to kill too!) and possibly healer (though I'm told the Druid will be doing more of that next game when she's there for all of it). So yeah, that's what I need so, any suggestions? Where I'm at now is considering a Sorcerer with the Favored Soul background to grab the Knowledge Domain to fit the Diviner, Face and Ranged DPS qualifications and then pick up a wand for healing when it's needed. But like I said, I'm a newb, so I thought it best to get some ideas from others with more experience with the system.

Edit: DM also suggested Wizard Envoker, but I haven't looked at it though. The only reason I hesitate, is because I already want Charisma to be high for the Face role, so Sorcerer seems the more natural class for that.

 

[Kithas]

So I know that things get complicated when you get knee deep into characters and it seems like there are a ton of things a party needs but in all honesty it helps to step back and consider most of them in three categories. These are Damage Dealer, Tank, and Support. To find out which one you are basically look at what you are built to do. If you are built to deal damage, take damage, or enhance the rest of your party respectively.

It looks like you want somewhere between a support and damage dealer. A mage fits this rather well I'd say although with the right stats and spells so can your paladin.
First let's look at your paladin because he's already built. A huge spell for a group like yours in need of healing would be aura of vitality, 2d6 healing a turn as a bonus action, so you can still pull damage off people while healing others. If your cha and skills are right you can definitely be the face for your party. I'm not sure what you mean by diviner but hopefully someone else in the group can scrape a decent wis/int score together :/

As for the mage option;
Favored soul sorcerer would do rather well, but I would offer a substitute; Bard. Bards are full casters that also excel in party support. The Lore college with it's expanded Mystical secrets will definitely serve you well, letting you steal things like aura of vitality, elemental weapon, conjure Volley, Fireball, Storm Sphere, basically any spell you want you can have. They cast out of charisma and have many of the 'face' skills, you also don't need many good scores so you have plenty of room for a decent int and wisdom. You even get expertise that you can throw at your 'diviner' skill of choice be it perception or insight.
As far as damage dealing, magic initiate into warlock for hex, eldritch blast and something else would give you some very potent ranged dpr as well.

I hope that helps!

 

[Aeradom]

So I know that things get complicated when you get knee deep into characters and it seems like there are a ton of things a party needs but in all honesty it helps to step back and consider most of them in three categories. These are Damage Dealer, Tank, and Support. To find out which one you are basically look at what you are built to do. If you are built to deal damage, take damage, or enhance the rest of your party respectively.

It looks like you want somewhere between a support and damage dealer. A mage fits this rather well I'd say although with the right stats and spells so can your paladin.
First let's look at your paladin because he's already built. A huge spell for a group like yours in need of healing would be aura of vitality, 2d6 healing a turn as a bonus action, so you can still pull damage off people while healing others. If your cha and skills are right you can definitely be the face for your party. I'm not sure what you mean by diviner but hopefully someone else in the group can scrape a decent wis/int score together :/

As for the mage option;
Favored soul sorcerer would do rather well, but I would offer a substitute; Bard. Bards are full casters that also excel in party support. The Lore college with it's expanded Mystical secrets will definitely serve you well, letting you steal things like aura of vitality, elemental weapon, conjure Volley, Fireball, Storm Sphere, basically any spell you want you can have. They cast out of charisma and have many of the 'face' skills, you also don't need many good scores so you have plenty of room for a decent int and wisdom. You even get expertise that you can throw at your 'diviner' skill of choice be it perception or insight.
As far as damage dealing, magic initiate into warlock for hex, eldritch blast and something else would give you some very potent ranged dpr as well.

I hope that helps!

That actually does help a lot actually. First off, what I meant by "Diviner" was basically the person who use detect magic and identify (which apparently no one in the party knows!), and in general looks for the less direct route to solve a problem. I like playing those sorts of characters and find it very rewarding finding the non-violent solution to the problem. Makes me feel more enlightened I suppose. To put it another way, I noticed that all three of your roles basically revolve around what they do in combat. Which is important, but I'm looking for someone that (while playing a role in combat) can also handle out of combat problems with just as much, if not greater degree.

Back to the specifics though, I really did enjoy playing my Paladin, and that was really without even using him to his fullest potential as I hadn't really gotten a chance to look at the spells list (just converted the existing spell slots to damage to get the game started quicker). But with that being said, we have a tank, and we have damage dealing (especially melee) in spades and just looking to fill the gap needed that a Mage of sorts would fill. That being said, Bard I really hadn't even considered. I'll look into them now and see what their spell lists consists of. At this point, I'm not really sure the party needs more damage persay, as it really needs support and out of combat help. And that's why I'm not considering Warlock for now, though from what I've read, the next game I'll definitely probably role one because they look super fun.

 

[Kithas]

Ah I see, then Bard is definitely my recommendation. With both detect magic and identify as spells(IIRC they can ritual-cast these), options like expertise and the fact that they get the most and most diverse skills of any class you have tons of out-of-combat options. Plus with Cha as really the only stat that maters for you that translates well into being the face of the party. If you don't have a race in mind half-elves get bonuses to cha and get even more skills.

Basically in 5e most of your out-of-combat stuff(like 90%-100%) is going to be skill/stat based and not class based. This is why most of my roles revolved around combat. They've really simplified the out-of-combat stuff so most of your customization will be in combat. This means that any class can be the 'Face' or the leader, or the sneak thief, or the brute. Some classes do have an edge from things like expertise and tendency to also want a good stat in those areas but for the most part it is separate.

If you're not worried about damage, get one of the great non-combat feats like actor, keen mind Observant etc.

 

[bid]

I'm looking for the most optimal way to use either a Sorcerer or Wizard to fill these three roles: Diviner, Face, Ranged DPS (Though, we may have enough melee DPS that this isn't as necessary but hey... I like to kill too!) and possibly healer

Excessive melee DPS, low healing, no caster, no face.

That a perfect match for a lore bard. Mellored guide is great: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468629-GUIDE-A-party-without-music-is-lame-A-Bard-Guide.


You will want bard 6 ASAP for secrets but AC14 is low. You can pick variant human to start with moderately armored and reach AC19 with shield.

Dipping Cleric 1 also works to fix AC. That means picking half-elf / lightfoot halfling with Wis13 or picking variant human with Wis12 and boosting it later with an ASI or observant. Knowledge and life domain aren't too dependent on Wis DC.


There are other interesting options, but they can be added later easily.

 

[pdegan2814]

(not considering Warlock as from the looks, there a melee mage and we have enough melee in the party) to be able to balance out the party.

I'm playing a couple of Archfey Warlocks right now in different campaigns, and while you can certainly play them as a sort of "dark paladin" type if you go Pact Of The Blade, you can absolutely play them as a regular ranged-attack caster. What you will find however is that you will have a more limited spell selection, and a very small number of actual spell slots that recharge between short rests, rather than a larger number of slots per day. As such, you'll probably be relying on cantrips for damage dealing more often than you would with wizard or sorcerer. The Invocations let you give your Warlock some flavor, with some at-will abilities, daily abilities, enchance your Eldritch Blasts, etc.

If you choose Pact Of The Tome you can take an invocation which lets you choose two 1st-level rituals from any class, and copy any ritual spells you find to cast as long as you cast them as rituals. So you'd be able to grab Detect Magic and Identify straight away with that invocation at Level 3. So as long as you had 10 minutes, you could be the guy to cast them, without burning spell slots. Plus just going Tome lets you snag three cantrips from any class, and treat them as Warlock cantrips(i.e. cast them w/Charisma). Things like Shillelagh, Vicious Mockery, Guidance, Sacred Flame, etc.

Wizard & Sorcerer will likely offer you more flexibility in terms of the spells you can cast, but don't ignore the Warlock straight away. I'm having fun with mine, so you might want to give them a second look.

 

[Coyote81]

I'm not sure if you can get a much better fitting setup then Warlock of the Tome 3/ Lore Bard 17.

This gives you a pure caster, with a huge assortment of great Cantrips/Skills

TomeLock gets your both a 2 level 1 ritual spells (Find Familiar and Identify) and 3 Cantrips of your choice, with the ability to learn every ritual in the game. (For a total of 7 by level 4) Vicious Mockery, Mage Hand, Guidance, Shillelagh, Thornwhip, Eldritch Blast, Light

Lore Bard gets you amazing skills, healing spells and choice spells to fill party needs.

Overall I would look at Variant Human (Just guessing you chose human to start) with the Healer Feat (This will save you on tons of spell slots need to stabilize and healer people out of combat.
-Start as a Bard for better starting skills and some healing spells
-Get to Warlock 3, Tomelock, with invocations to add your charisma to your Eldritch Blast and Book of Ancient Secrets
-Back to bard until at least 6, then from there you can get Level 4 in Warlock whenever you feel you need a feat/ASI

This character will be a great caster and skill user.

 

[crashtestdummy]

I'll also support lore bard as a strong option. I'm currently playing a lore bard in a party that includes a sorcerer. The problem with both classes is the lack of spells known, which is worse for the sorcerer. That means that the sorcerer has to concentrate on mainly damage dealing spells, and I have my bard concentrate more on support spells. Skill-wise, my bard has the most flexibility of all the party, and bardic inspiration is proving extremely useful with helping the other characters make saving throws, and using cutting words to cut into the opponents atttacks/saving throws.

Bard's are natural 'face' characters. The weakness in armour class and in spells known can be managed in a number of ways, but they're strong in skills and spell variety. Rather than taking rituals as a spell known, consider picking up the Ritual Caster feat at first level as a variant human. That gives you the maximum flexibility. Where they fall down is ranged DPS until you get to sixth level and they can use magical secrets to pick up whatever they want.

 

[Aeradom]

First off, just want you guys to know I'm really grateful for the responses. Sorry for the delay in response

I'll also support lore bard as a strong option. I'm currently playing a lore bard in a party that includes a sorcerer. The problem with both classes is the lack of spells known, which is worse for the sorcerer. That means that the sorcerer has to concentrate on mainly damage dealing spells, and I have my bard concentrate more on support spells. Skill-wise, my bard has the most flexibility of all the party, and bardic inspiration is proving extremely useful with helping the other characters make saving throws, and using cutting words to cut into the opponents atttacks/saving throws.

Bard's are natural 'face' characters. The weakness in armour class and in spells known can be managed in a number of ways, but they're strong in skills and spell variety. Rather than taking rituals as a spell known, consider picking up the Ritual Caster feat at first level as a variant human. That gives you the maximum flexibility. Where they fall down is ranged DPS until you get to sixth level and they can use magical secrets to pick up whatever they want.

I'm defintely leaning towards Bard, at least for the first six levels (character I'm making level 8 btw), but as far as what to do with those last two levels I'm undecided on if to go with first two levels of sorcerer or if to keep rolling like normal with Bard. The main thing that is going to decide it honestly is how the multi-classnig works (which I'm looking into now) and if the Staff of the Magi (which I have the option of getting... long story) would apply to Bard spells or even if I can use it as a multiclassed character.

I'll also support lore bard as a strong option. I'm currently playing a lore bard in a party that includes a sorcerer. The problem with both classes is the lack of spells known, which is worse for the sorcerer. That means that the sorcerer has to concentrate on mainly damage dealing spells, and I have my bard concentrate more on support spells. Skill-wise, my bard has the most flexibility of all the party, and bardic inspiration is proving extremely useful with helping the other characters make saving throws, and using cutting words to cut into the opponents atttacks/saving throws.


Bard's are natural 'face' characters. The weakness in armour class and in spells known can be managed in a number of ways, but they're strong in skills and spell variety. Rather than taking rituals as a spell known, consider picking up the Ritual Caster feat at first level as a variant human. That gives you the maximum flexibility. Where they fall down is ranged DPS until you get to sixth level and they can use magical secrets to pick up whatever they want.

Ah I see, then Bard is definitely my recommendation. With both detect magic and identify as spells(IIRC they can ritual-cast these), options like expertise and the fact that they get the most and most diverse skills of any class you have tons of out-of-combat options. Plus with Cha as really the only stat that maters for you that translates well into being the face of the party. If you don't have a race in mind half-elves get bonuses to cha and get even more skills.


Basically in 5e most of your out-of-combat stuff(like 90%-100%) is going to be skill/stat based and not class based. This is why most of my roles revolved around combat. They've really simplified the out-of-combat stuff so most of your customization will be in combat. This means that any class can be the 'Face' or the leader, or the sneak thief, or the brute. Some classes do have an edge from things like expertise and tendency to also want a good stat in those areas but for the most part it is separate.


If you're not worried about damage, get one of the great non-combat feats like actor, keen mind Observant etc.

 

[pdegan2814]

First off, just want you guys to know I'm really grateful for the responses. Sorry for the delay in response



I'm defintely leaning towards Bard, at least for the first six levels (character I'm making level 8 btw), but as far as what to do with those last two levels I'm undecided on if to go with first two levels of sorcerer or if to keep rolling like normal with Bard. The main thing that is going to decide it honestly is how the multi-classnig works (which I'm looking into now) and if the Staff of the Magi (which I have the option of getting... long story) would apply to Bard spells or even if I can use it as a multiclassed character.

Well, the DMG says that staff requires attunement by a Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard. I'm assuming someone with at least 1 level in one of those classes counts. And you'd have to use the Spell Save DC from that class for the Staff's abilities. Thankfully, both Warlock and Sorcerer use Charisma just like the Bard, so your DC for the Staff would only be nerfed if you had dipped Wizard in order to use it.