How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[GMforPowergamers]

If you think it still is, consider what you'd do if you were told by your DM that you were using point buy for stats, but your main class' key stat had to be the class minimum. Or what it would be like to be the sole powergamer in a group of amateur thespians.

I will tell you this, thespian games are fun, powergamer games are fun, even mix games are fun... you know what sucks having your character being put under a microscope...

I will sleep well tonight imagining the game where 16 was the cap on attributes...

 

[Kinneus]

Thanks for all the advice so far. A few things:
1) I examined my motives after I wrote that first post. While I don't think I was consciously jealous, it did occur to me that when I initially joined this group, I wanted to make a swordmage. When I was informed that the group already had a dragonborn swordmage (and another defender on top o that), I thought, "Well, dang, guess I'll make something else."
I'm not into the whole Freudian thing, but I guess it's possible I was subconsciouly over-critical of the swordmage because I wanted to play one myself. I'll err on the side of caution and keep my criticisms to myself, for the time being.

2) The group is running through published modules, like Keep on the Shadowfell, and all that. These are pretty widely known for being a hack-and-slash fest with minimal opportunity for non-combat-oriented RP, so I have to say I don't think it's unreasonable to expect every character to pull their weight. In any other game, though, I'd agree that a +3 to Diplomacy could be more useful than a +1 to hit. But in this game, I honestly thought we had more trouble clearing out kobolds than we should have.

3) I would be... surprised if this guy went with low Int for 'roleplay reasons'. He didn't seem to roleplay much at all, mostly keeping silent unless it was his turn in the iniative order. On his turn, he basically just said, "I use <power> on <target>." He really seemed to be somebody new to 4e, and possibly new to D&D in general. In the first fight, the DM had to explain to him how to add up all his bonuses to make an attack, for instance. A lot of the group seems to be newer players.

4) It is true that there's different ways to building a character. I later discovered that he was using a greatsword, bringing his Warding bonus down to +1... not something I would personally do, but then again, I'm sure there are greatweapon-using swordmages out there. As to his internal logic to creating this character (I deduced that he has an 18 Str, 16 Con, and 14 Int), I think outsider has a pretty good theory:

Here's my guess why he has low int: He's playing an assault swordmage, and didn't notice the Intelligent Blademaster feat, thus he improved his str instead. It's also possible that he thought it was a waste of a feat.

That's a good point, and it's a mistake I very nearly made with my first swordmage, who was also assault. This guy is, in fact, an assault swordmage. So, that may be it.

Anyway, in the end, I realized that this was only one session. And even though he missed a lot, he did contribute to the group (mostly by having a big ol' bag of hitpoints and healing surges, and by getting some lucky rolls with Flame Cyclone and cutting a swath). If he asks for advice, I'll be more than happy to give it. Otherwise, I'll give it a few more sessions, and then maybe (possibly) email the DM.

 

[Pig Champion]

Your turning what I said into a badwrongfun statement, which it isn't at all.

I consider creating an effective character a social obligation when you're in a group who all creates effective characters.

If you're in a group who doesn't care about succeeding at their goals and who is happy to have characters die every other session and constantly fail at the challenges presented to them, bully for you.

Wow, you have flair for the melodramatic, are you sure you're not a roleplayer? You seem to have some deep seeded issues here, we're talking about a 14, a 14 which is a +2, which by any standard is a pretty neat and tidy bonus.

I doubt a -1 will lead to a string of successive TPK's, failed challenges and the ending of the game for everybody at the table...as...they...know...it...DUN DUN DUN

 

[Aus_Snow]

Your turning what I said into a badwrongfun statement, which it isn't at all.

Funny thing? I was willing to take your intent at face value, until. . .

If you're in a group who doesn't care about succeeding at their goals and who is happy to have characters die every other session and constantly fail at the challenges presented to them, bully for you.

But in most groups, failing to succeed at the mission or defeat the enemies or being unable to complete the challenges presented to you is the antithesis of fun. So you have one person in a group going against the grain because of... what? Because they want to 'roleplay' a dunce?

Do it in some other group that thinks roleplaying is somehow superior to rolling dice, killing stuff and taking its loot. Where fluffy bunnies are considered dangerous enemies and cats can kill you with one swipe of their vicious claws.

. . . I read all that.

Because uh, if that isn't a whole g'damn walloping pile-O-onetruewayism, I'd be curious horrified to see what is.

 

[outsider]

what about "My way or the highway you mus be this min/max to play this game" type annoying disruptive players?

These players are equally problematic. How problematic each side of the coin is depends on the group in question. Most groups I've played in have considered the "weak characters are the height of rp" guys to be the problem. However, that's biased as I don't play in a group for long when they consider optimization to be a sin.

Basically, when you are the person doing it differently than the rest of the group, you are the problem no matter how noble your motivations may be. The OP's group has just formed, so it's hard to say if either or both perspectives are going to be problematic.

That being said, the character will still be useful with 14 int. It will be hitting alot less than it could, but if it's a shielding swordmage it has a really powerful ability that doesn't require a hit roll. He'd certainly be more useful with more int though. A 18 con/14 int sheilding swordmage has a 25 damage reduction aegis at level 30. A 18 int/14 con shielding sword mage will have a 23 damage reduction aegis. That's only a two point difference. And what does the high int swordmage get in exchange? +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 to ac, +2 to reflex. Is reducing an extra 2 damage once per round worth doing 2 damage per round less yourself, in addition to the penalty to hit, ac, and reflex? At low level, I guess it's debatable. At high level though, I've gotta say no way.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

...we're talking about a 14, a 14 which is a +2, which by any standard is a pretty neat and tidy bonus.

Any standard except the conceptual framework of expectations for stats in 4e.

I doubt a -1 will lead to a string of successive TPK's, failed challenges and the ending of the game for everybody at the table...as...they...know...it...DUN DUN DUN

No, but it will make his character miss in combat. A lot. Which isn't satisfying at all. And he may find the game more frustrating than fun. And that's Bad.

This isn't hypothetical; I've seen it happen. A friend tried to play a two-primary-stat warlock in a 4e game I ran at the dawn of 4e, and he couldn't hit anything, and he didn't have any fun at all.

Don't wait until he's Not Having Fun. He's playing the game to have fun, and if he's not having fun and he's new to D&D, he may conclude that it's simply not for him and leave, when in fact he would have enjoyed it just as much as everybody else if his character hadn't been crippled. Don't be blatant UR DOING IT WRONG, but don't ignore the issue either.

Anybody who says "He chose to put a 14 in int for A Reason, and this is His Decision, and we Must Not Interfere with it, for that would be Wrong" is actively working against the introduction of the joy of RPGs to new people.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Wow, you have flair for the melodramatic, are you sure you're not a roleplayer? You seem to have some deep seeded issues here, we're talking about a 14, a 14 which is a +2, which by any standard is a pretty neat and tidy bonus.

I doubt a -1 will lead to a string of successive TPK's, failed challenges and the ending of the game for everybody at the table...as...they...know...it...DUN DUN DUN

What if it's every player at the table? What if it's 12 instead of 14? 10 instead of 12? They still have their weapon proficiency, and the die roll itself. If they can scrape by after 15 rounds of combat because of tons of misses, but don't TPK, is it still okay? You seem to be implying that there isn't a line to be drawn. Is there really? If there is, you can complain about drawing the line harshly, but not about drawing a line at all.

 

[LightPhoenix]

The bottom line is that, as a player, it's none of your business.

It's the DM's job to be on top of things like this, not fellow players. If your DM is fine with it, so be it. I'm assuming he is, otherwise something would have been said to the player.

Now, if you don't like it, that's your prerogative. You can go DM your own game, or play in another game, or put up with it, or wait and see what happens. No one is forcing you to play with these people.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Funny thing? I was willing to take your intent at face value, until. . .

. . . I read all that.

Because uh, if that isn't a whole g'damn walloping pile-O-onetruewayism, I'd be curious horrified to see what is.

If the idea that it's important for people who are playing a game to enjoy playing that game is onetruewayism...

 

[Aus_Snow]

If the idea that it's important for people who are playing a game to enjoy playing that game is onetruewayism...

Hehe, nice one. I actually laughed out loud.

Kudos!

Also, XP for the humour. It's needed around here.