D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[AnotherGuy]

Double Post

 

[AnotherGuy]

I didn't post my original point about your list of racism in Dnd. I posted it in response to the assertion that taking out the racism from DnD would remove the spice from it and make bland and uninteresting. If that logic follows, then adding racism to a movie makes it spicy and more interesting. Now you claim that is an absurd point of view and a gotcha.... so how is taking something out making something bland, but adding it in absurd? Why does this logic only work in one direction, the direction of not changing anything?

Racism is a story tool that ppl (like me) don't want to see discarded or left out the tool box.

Your question sets up a gotcha moment that implies that racism needs to be in every storyline.

Can you see the difference? My upthread post with the racism tool is important for those stories but it would likely not be important say on a Minrothadan Merchant Prince expedition (sea voyage charting new lands) or seeking an audience with the stone giant thane to request use of her conch of teleportation in Storm King's Thunder.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Almost all. There are exceptions to every rule. I remember back during 2e buying a Planescape supplement and looking at the small adventures provided with it. One of those adventures was rescuing a good succubus and helping her get out of the abyss to be reunited with her love.

Though it was a little later, Planescape: Torment had Fall-From-Grace, a lawful neutral succubus who had a "brothel" for fulfilling intellectual desire, as a main companion character. There was also the fact that free will in outer planes beings is implied by the example of fallen celestials.

The truth is that alignment in AD&D 2E (probably 1E as well, but I didn't play it) was never as hard coded as people today like to claim it was. There is probably text to support the claim somewhere in the edition, but there's enough contradictions to cast doubt on the concept (not uncommon in 2E; there's a thread in the older editions forum where people are quoting multiple books trying to pin down how specialty priests work). Any Monster Manual or Monstrous Compendium entry can be read as "is" or "is generally" depending on the group's preferences. I know the groups I played with played pretty fast and loose with it back in the 90s. I doubt we were the only ones.

 

[Maxperson]

Though it was a little later, Planescape: Torment had Fall-From-Grace, a lawful neutral succubus who had a "brothel" for fulfilling intellectual desire, as a main companion character. There was also the fact that free will in outer planes beings is implied by the example of fallen celestials.

The truth is that alignment in AD&D 2E (probably 1E as well, but I didn't play it) was never as hard coded as people today like to claim it was. There is probably text to support the claim somewhere in the edition, but there's enough contradictions to cast doubt on the concept (not uncommon in 2E; there's a thread in the older editions forum where people are quoting multiple books trying to pin down how specialty priests work). Any Monster Manual or Monstrous Compendium entry can be read as "is" or "is generally" depending on the group's preferences. I know the groups I played with played pretty fast and loose with it back in the 90s. I doubt we were the only ones.

1e was pretty bad. I did play it and the DM got to assess if your PC was playing his alignment and if he thought you weren't, he could change you to another alignment. At that point you lost a level and then had to atone for 10k gold per level with a cleric to get the level back. And that was if the change was involuntary. If you knowingly or unknowingly(but through your actions) changed alignment, you couldn't get the level back other than by earning the XP.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I guess the idea is that D&D only has bigotry in it to make it interesting; therefore, removing the bigotry leaves nothing useful behind.

Not true. Bigotry is a tool as is religious fundamentalism, as is widespread famine, midst of a war, overthrowing the yoke of colonialism, saving the royal bloodline, magic dying, magic rebirth, incurable plague, living in a climate hellscape etc.

Chaosmancer misrepresented the discussion.

 

[Incenjucar]

Old school alignment was more like a sports team. Good for a video game faction system maybe. By 2E we already had fuzzy alignment like "Chaotic neutral (evil)", and even the outer planes reflect that granular spectrum, and the whole beliefing a town into a new plane thing could be done by preaching new ideas.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Jumping in here, because I like the Tyranids Not sure I'd classify them as evil either, bit like the Xenomorphs in alien series (That I believe they were inspired by) - they are very much other / alien, while what they are doing may be considered evil from our point of view, they aren't like Chaos / Dark Elder, they are doing it because of their intrinsic nature to feed / propagate.

Of course, should still try and eliminate them on sight, but I like them because I don't they fit on good / evil spectrum, as so far outside human experience.

Yeah you raise a good point there. Individual tyranids aren't 'evil'. They're simply unaligned predators with no directive other than feed. They're no more evil than a carnivorous insect.

Though I'd argue that the Hive Mind could be evil. It has the power and intelligence of a major deity, and still only gives directives to kill and consume. Hive Fleet Tiamet even proves that the hive mind is capable of settling on and sustaining single worlds if it wants to. But it doesn't want to.

 

[Hussar]

Nah. Bigotry is a tool as is religious fundamentalism, as is widespread famine, midst of a war, overthrowing the yoke of colonialism, saving the royal bloodline, magic dying, magic rebirth, incurable plague, living in a climate hellscape etc.

Chaosmancer misrepresented the discussion.

Except for the fact that famine etc are not specifically called out in the phb as something every single member of a race has to deal with on a daily basis.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

It is almost like, the issue isn't trying to show more complex tribal societies, since that is a thing we are allowed to do occassionally... just not with THOSE people.

Wildmount shows orcs as part of the civilised nations on a regular basis. It even talks about orcs being merchants on the Menagerie coast. There is even a certain Half-Orc called Fjord who everybody loves.

Eberron has orcs acting as some of the main protectors of the setting, preventing the demonic incursions from entering the rest of the continent. And outside that, they have a reputation for being bounty hunters and inquisitors.

And yes, there is a reason it's always the same few species put in these positions as raiders and bandits. It's because the designers made up scary monsters for the monster manual first, and then further development into actual people came later on. And then once they had been developed into actual people, their endless use as 'generic bad guy' started looking odd.

The word 'orc' literally means 'evil spirit', 'corpse', or 'sea monster'. Depending on the translation, culture, and time.

 

[Minigiant]

The core issue is that D&D used to be a silly nonsense game with silly rces, classes, and monsters that you ddn't think about because it was purely silly.

This works if you plan on the game remaining silly and nonsense. Don't do anything overly offensive and you are fine. This is why silly little nonserious board games and video games get away with tropey races and classes.

The issue is when you try to be serious.

D&D tried to be serious. That's why it create half orcs in the first place. D&D knew playable orcs the way it categorized them made no sense. They were devious of true thinking and were basically smart animals. So it made the half orcs.

And that's where the problems started.

Age of Wonders 4 is doing a new TBS game where players create their races. You choose a body, mind, society, and culture trait. The culture traits are:

1. Feudal
2. Barbarian
3. Industrious
4. High
5. Dark
6. Mystic
7. "Chaotic/Demonic" (hinted to be DLC)
8. "Druidic" (hinted to be DLC)

D&D Orcs are always defaulted as Barbarian. Whereas Elves are promoted has having High, Dark,and Druidic options and given more as there are 15 types of elves.

The question becomes why are all orcs stuck with Barbarian by default but Elves and Humans are supported with every option?

That's why silly lore taken seriously breaks down.