How Did Your Lair Assault 2 Go? (spoilers)

[KarinsDad]

Well, I was more impressed with Lair Assault 2 than Lair Assault 1.

Our group used the Traveler's Camouflage ritual to give a bonus to everyone's stealth, snuck in, killed 2 minions, and escaped with the Talon.

In the second encounter however, the DM decided that since the first encounter went so well for the PCs, he was going to add in the action point for the BBEG that the module didn't have.

Our Cleric died in round one after 5 successful hits for 144 points of damage (20 of which was stopped by resist 5). The action point was the difference there. All of the bad guys focused on her. That was a bit of overkill, but to be fair, the Cleric would have made this encounter a bit of a walk in the park with Moment of Glory, Stream of Life, and Beacon of Hope (healing 20 per round and resist 5, and quite a few extra other heals). Without that, it was a significant challenge for 4 PCs. We won by heading below decks, and killing the foes when they came down (they broke through the upper deck and hopped down, but that wasted a round for them that wiped out the other 2 foes right away). After the BBEG killed our Cleric, we were not going to do any of that negotiating stuff. He bought the farm in a few rounds once he made it downstairs. Then, it was just a matter of wiping out the tentacles. That took a long time and one more PC died going overboard, but we won in the end.

Overall, it was a challenging adventure. A well prepared party, though, should on average win this thing. We got lucky by bypassing the first adventure, but unlucky by losing our Cleric.

The one meh part of the adventure was the tentacles. They were pretty blah and with the abilities the PCs possessed, it was pretty much a slow grind to wipe them out.


How did your Lair Assault 2 go?

 

[Taed]

I played this the last two weeks with [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]. Our first time through, none of us knew anything about the module except that it involved pirates and two encounters. Our party of 5 spent about 5 hours but had to stop due to the store closing. We did not finish the second encounter, and were down to just 3 PCs, so it so-so as to whether we would finish and have enough people to sail the ship (2).

The second time, we were much more prepared (everyone trained in Stealth, for example) and our party of 4 finished and won both encounters in about 90 minutes.

The first encounter was finished in about 30 minutes. We came in on the rowboat with Water Walking, Silence, and Traveler's Camouflage. We were then going to use a Hand of Fate scroll to point to where the Talon was, but due to our short-by-1 party, we had no one trained in the needed Religion. So, the two most stealthy PCs (one of them a Pixie) quickly searched the chests, found the right room, did Coupe de Grace on the two inhabitants, all without alerting anyone else and then the strong guy carried the Talon out to the rowboat. We completed that encounter without taking any damage.

For the second encounter, we quickly went below decks (having learned our lesson with the tentacles the first time around) and fought it out down there, away from the tentacles. The module apparently had nothing to say about what the tentacles would do without available targets. We bloodied the Baron and our Warlord was able to get him to retreat (I forget the power). So, we won without killing any monsters, and only the Pixie got bloodied.

The largest oversight that I noticed was that the module apparently does not say how much the Talon weighs. The DM rules previously that it was between 500 and 1000 pounds, so that put it out of range of a Bag of Holding, and possibly also Tenser's Floating Disk (depending on the roll). Information like that should have been in the module.

All of us felt that the first Lair Assault was more fun and re-playable. While this one certainly had less "cheese" (primarily due to the lack of advantage to be had knowing that ongoing fire damage was sure to come), it was less fun. After playing it twice, we're not going to play it again. Compare that to the first, which I played 4 times and I think the others in the group may have played a few more times.

 

[Zuche]

I'd have thought a strategy of hiding below decks was suicide, since that leaves the tentacles only one target: the ship. I can't find hit points for a caravel, but 350, midway between a longship and a greatship, seemed fair. If you feel that might not be sporting, have the tentacles go for break checks (or attacks) against sections of the hull, letting them earn limited access to the players.

I'd still just opt to sink the ship. There's still value in hiding below decks for a round or two, which seems more than fair to me.

I checked the Silence ritual, and I don't see how it would apply. I don't consider a rowboat to be either a room nor an area. That takes care of Hand of Fate, as all that ritual casting is going to draw attention.

I was also very, very stingy on the subject of remaining hidden after performing a coup de grace. It would certainly go undetected by the pirates in the middle room, but offing one knave without alerting the other one in the room long enough to sound an alarm demanded extra effort. I quickly identified three ways players could achieve them, one of which pointed out other means of achieving the same goal. Several other options have since suggested themselves to me, so I feel completely guilt free about what happened to my first band of heroes.

They got off to a good start, with a berserker and cleric sneaking into one room and a warden and wizard sneaking into the other. I made things harder by pointing out that any attempt to communicate with words could alert the sleepers as well, but the players rose to that challenge beautifully.

It was splitting the party between two rooms that got them in trouble. I missed on every single attack in the first round, letting the warden and wizard get off to a nice start in their room. The berserker was also faring pretty well in that first round, even managing to land a hit against the first mate, forcing her to retreat (a gamble that paid off) to let her captain take her place in the next round.

Yes, they were filling pretty confident -- right up until the captain charged in against their berserker and landed a critical hit with combat advantage. The cleric was able to make it nearly impossible to hit him in the next round, but healing was not as effective as he'd hoped it would be. Between them, they spent two daily powers and an action point to bloody her (bad attack rolls did not help), and then the cleric backed away to go check out other chests.

This is where it all started to go really wrong. The berserker was eventually overwhelmed by the captain, first mate (I used my best June Foray impressions for them, but couldn't draw the players into the slightest bit of interaction), one pirate, and three knaves, while the warden wandered away from the pirates he'd been pushing around the moment the horn was blown, attempting to get to the other chests. The wizard opened the one in their room, finding 2000 gold, then retreated to the rowboat, where he figured he'd be safe in the corner of the map.

Captain Bloodbath and pirate crossbows soon showed him how wrong he was. Meanwhile, their companions were out checking the last two chests. With one round to spare, they discovered that the one they wanted was with the barbarian they'd left to die.

I'm seriously considering playing the Baron with Boris Badenov's voice.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd have thought a strategy of hiding below decks was suicide, since that leaves the tentacles only one target: the ship. I can't find hit points for a caravel, but 350, midway between a longship and a greatship, seemed fair. If you feel that might not be sporting, have the tentacles go for break checks (or attacks) against sections of the hull, letting them earn limited access to the players.

I thought staying above decks was suicide.

Each tentacle targets 2 to 3 PCs per round, the BBEG gets 2, and the lesser 2 foes get 1 each (IIRC). That's a total of 12 to 16 NPC attacks per round. That could easily drop 1 or 2 PCs per round.

I was also very, very stingy on the subject of remaining hidden after performing a coup de grace. It would certainly go undetected by the pirates in the middle room, but offing one knave without alerting the other one in the room long enough to sound an alarm demanded extra effort.

Why?

Our DM told was that the 2 pirates were asleep / drunk.

We had 2 PCs stand over each NPC and simultaneously CDG them. Navy Seals do this all of the time.

Are the pirates in the middle THAT alert to random noises? It's a fricking pirate den. There should be all kinds of stuff constantly going on that (pirates throwing up, fights, laughter, creaking floors, etc.).

The concept that the pirates come running if a floor creaks in a room where 2 pirates were sleeping it off is, quite frankly, ludicrous and stupid.

That part of the module was totally non-plausible and lame.

 

[Taed]

I'd have thought a strategy of hiding below decks was suicide, since that leaves the tentacles only one target: the ship. I can't find hit points for a caravel, but 350, midway between a longship and a greatship, seemed fair. If you feel that might not be sporting, have the tentacles go for break checks (or attacks) against sections of the hull, letting them earn limited access to the players.

Yes, we discussed both of those things for if we were going to play it a third time, namely the tentacles coming through the hull or through the hatches above. But the DM decided to play it "as written" that time.

I checked the Silence ritual, and I don't see how it would apply. I don't consider a rowboat to be either a room nor an area.

We discussed that, and it's a "how does magic work in your world" discussion. For me, it came down to thinking of it this way: If we cast silence (or any sort of area zone similar to that) when we were on the large ship, would the zone stay at the same spot on the ship as the ship moves through the water, or would the zone stay fixed at the "GPS" coordinates of the water and thus quickly move to the rear of the ship and then off it? It seems to me that it would stay with the ship, and thus would also stay on a rowboat (if cast while on the rowboat), but would not extend beyond the rowboat as it moved. If you don't agree, then what if one were in the crow's nest of the ship -- would the crow's nest remain Silenced as the ship moved? However, one could certainly logically rule the other way, but then you should be consistent about how other zones work on moving objects (such as ships). However, I certainly agree that you could not cast Silence (or some other zone) on, say, a horse or roller skates and expect it to stay with those objects.

 

[Zuche]

I thought staying above decks was suicide.

Each tentacle targets 2 to 3 PCs per round, the BBEG gets 2, and the lesser 2 foes get 1 each (IIRC). That's a total of 12 to 16 NPC attacks per round. That could easily drop 1 or 2 PCs per round.

As opposed to one ship, with all onboard, in two or three rounds. There is merit to the tactical retreat, but your enemies have no reason to split up and come after you. Once you're all below decks, you've ceded control of the ship to enemies who can achieve their objective by sinking you.

Waiting until the tentacles could knock holes through the hull before charging in is the generous option.

We had 2 PCs stand over each NPC and simultaneously CDG them. Navy Seals do this all of the time.

Yes, it's as simple as that, unless someone rolls a 1 on the attack. My party thought they'd get away with leaving it up to one guy in a room.

Are the pirates in the middle THAT alert to random noises? It's a fricking pirate den. There should be all kinds of stuff constantly going on that (pirates throwing up, fights, laughter, creaking floors, etc.).

The adventure was sporting enough to post no sentries and leave you very easy access to their base. Fair's fair.

The concept that the pirates come running if a floor creaks in a room where 2 pirates were sleeping it off is, quite frankly, ludicrous and stupid.

There's more to it than that. The first part of the challenge can be very easy with the right approach, but playing a little bad luck or an oversight for all it's worth in this regard is much more entertaining. The players already got their break here as it was, should they opt to use it.

Yes, we discussed both of those things for if we were going to play it a third time, namely the tentacles coming through the hull or through the hatches above. But the DM decided to play it "as written" that time.

Every DM makes a choice. Yours saw nothing written to allow for attacks against the ship, and had your enemies play right into your hands. I saw nothing prohibiting attacks on the ship, but some very good reasons why your enemies would not pursue that option -- so long as you didn't hand them effective control of the vessel by abandoning the deck.

We discussed that, and it's a "how does magic work in your world" discussion. For me, it came down to thinking of it this way: If we cast silence (or any sort of area zone similar to that) when we were on the large ship, would the zone stay at the same spot on the ship as the ship moves through the water, or would the zone stay fixed at the "GPS" coordinates of the water and thus quickly move to the rear of the ship and then off it?

As I see it, a vehicle is not an area, though one large enough could include an eligible target for the spell: a room. The hold of the ship could be silenced, but not the crow's nest. Still, as you note, it was entirely your table's call, and far more reasonable than building a play fort on the rowboat in an attempt to get that recognized as a room.

 

[KarinsDad]

As opposed to one ship, with all onboard, in two or three rounds. There is merit to the tactical retreat, but your enemies have no reason to split up and come after you. Once you're all below decks, you've ceded control of the ship to enemies who can achieve their objective by sinking you.

Waiting until the tentacles could knock holes through the hull before charging in is the generous option.

There is a difference between a killer encounter, and one where the DM says "Ok, you went below decks, you are all dead". But staying up above is totally out of the question. The module forces the PCs below decks. There is no other choice. There is not a single square on board the ship where the PCs could attack the NPCs and the NPCs cannot attack back without the NPCs coming down below as well.

So, that means that the PCs must retreat but with your interpretation of smart NPCs, the NPCs should not follow and should destroy the ship instead. I'm not quite seeing how the PCs could ever win in that scenario.

I was bothered a bit how I spent many hours designing my daughter's PC and her PC was killed half way through round one in the second encounter and she couldn't play at all for 3 hours. I would have been really annoyed if my DM did as you suggested and auto-killed us in 2 to 3 rounds if we stayed and auto-killed us in 2 to 3 rounds if we went below decks.

PS. It's not as if our group stopped fighting. We constantly went back up above decks to attack the tentacles. We would just go up and attack and "shift fall, or teleport fall" back below so that the tentacles had to ready actions to attack us (the holds had been breached open earlier in the encounter, so it was easy to get back below decks). It wasn't as if the NPCs weren't getting their fair share of attacks, it's just that the PCs controlled some of those attacks instead of everyone just dying in the first 4 rounds as you suggest.

 

[Nullzone]

And once again, in an effort to stop perceived cheese, they arbitrarily restrict player options and screw entire class makeups in the process.

People using encounter long effects and turning into superman for it? CAN'T HAVE THAT, MAKE TWO ENCOUNTERS WITHOUT A SHORT REST! Never mind if that alienates classes like the Skald.

Really, they should just do pregens and get it over with. The two-faced nature of telling people to optimize their hearts out but then slapping knee-jerk anti-cheese mechanisms on it is grating on the nerves.

Edit: But I give them credit, as this sounds a lot more interesting than the first with the stealth and such.

 

[Dice4Hire]

And once again, in an effort to stop perceived cheese, they arbitrarily restrict player options and screw entire class makeups in the process.

People using encounter long effects and turning into superman for it? CAN'T HAVE THAT, MAKE TWO ENCOUNTERS WITHOUT A SHORT REST! Never mind if that alienates classes like the Skald.

Really, they should just do pregens and get it over with. The two-faced nature of telling people to optimize their hearts out but then slapping knee-jerk anti-cheese mechanisms on it is grating on the nerves.

Edit: But I give them credit, as this sounds a lot more interesting than the first with the stealth and such.

Think of it instead as a different set of rules to min-max. Don't want people to play the exact same characters every assault, do we?

 

[keterys]

Sounds like most of the encounter long things should be used for the second part.

This sounds like a lot of differences from the version I playtested. Now I wish I could see how the final version turned out.