D&D 5E How do players know they are in the "wrong" location in a sandbox campaign?

[Tobold]

I think what my players need is just a bit more information than what is given in the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure. One bit of information they need is that air is the weakest element, followed by water, earth, and fire. If knowing that they still want to go to the fire dungeon, I'm fine with that.

I'm playing a shortened version of Lost Mine of Phandelver (without the mine, so just to level 3) before PotA, and I'll change the dragon cultists in that adventure to air cultists, and also make Glasstaff take order from the air cultists instead of the Black Spider. That should get things started without the players being totally lost.

 

[TwoSix]

But there is plenty for creating a feeling of foreboding, tension, and dread.

"You suddenly realize the chittering of rats has ceased, the sound of dripping water has receded, and the area is deathly still."

"You notice the air getting chillier and chillier, and has the slight stench of rotting flesh."

"The walls of the stairway are gouged deeply with what appear to be claw marks. The stairs themselves have cracked and broken edges, and in some places one entire side is gone for a step or two."

"You see a set of dark streaks on the wall. And...(rolls) it's blood. And at the end, in a jagged vertical crack, you see a torn off fingernail hanging at the end of one streak, and the protruding end of a rotting finger at the other. The end appears sheared off cleanly, as if by a sword. The stairs below - and to the edge of your torch light - are covered in dried blood. To cover stairs of this size would take gallons of it."

Do that over the span of a few hundred feet of descending stairs and that should clue them in.

Gonna be honest, as a player, that would just come across as flavor text. I need something that comes across as "Here be CR9s." Footprints as wide as a man's height, a dozen corpses that look to have been incinerated simultaneously, etc.

If you want your players to be informed in a sandbox, then it's important that information gathering not be a time-consuming, resource intensive process that requires the parsing of subtle clues. Save that for more challenging sandboxes where you intend to reward player caution as skilled play and punish boldness as poor play.

 

[S'mon]

IME once PCs hit 3rd or 4th level they can almost always survive long enough to flee. I definitely advise being fairly generous with flight/evasion in a sandbox game. Conan certainly ran away often enough! Maybe the group lose a PC, but it's worth it to avoid TPK - important they understand this.

I would tend to advise taking a hint from Basic/Expert D&D and save the sandboxing until the PCs hit 3rd or 4th level. And they should stay cautious until 5th; there's not much a competent group of players with fully rested 5th level PCs can't handle, even if it takes all their resources for the day.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

This is a good opportunity to introduce a (faction) mentor or two. NPCs the players can go to and get guidance they're not necessarily getting directly from the adventure or need for a good push in the right direction. Up to them if they take the advise.

 

[Kabouter Games]

I think we differ on our definition of "choice". For me a choice between different options without having any information about the consequences is not a choice at all. It is an illusion of choice.

"Horsefeathers," he said in a 'we're chums sitting in a pub discussing this over a beer' sort of way.

That's what exploration is all about. That's what adventure is all about! You have no idea if turning left will turn out all right because you have no idea where turning left leads. That's not an illusion. You still decide to turn left, even though you have no idea what'll happen.

You're right that choosing to turn left and being told, "Rocks fall, everyone dies" with no way to predict that possible outcome - and no way to get out of it - is unsatisfying. But choosing to turn left and being told what's there after exploring the Land of Left is an entirely different thing. It could be anything. If Left leads to the Black Beast of Aargh, you run away. If it leads to the Castle Anthrax, you engage in a little bit of peril, but not too much, because it's too perilous. If it leads to Swamp Castle, you rush in and kill everyone, then get married.

I mean, really, have you never been on a dungeon crawl where the hallway you're in intersects with another hallway, and the hallways leading left and right and ahead all look exactly the same? You pick a hallway and start down it. How is that "an illusion of choice"?

Some choices you have to make with little to no information. Others you don't. It's better to make decisions with information, but sometimes that's not possible. To pretend that making a decision with little to no information isn't a choice doesn't even make sense. Is it not written, many years ago by the sage Neil of Peart, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"?

Cheers,

Bob

www.r-p-davis.com

 

[LordEntrails]

A lot of good discussion, but I didn't see other mention this...

How in real life do you know you are in a dangerous place? (Take a clue from the movies and TV if need be...)

You walk into a neighborhood and though everything is clean and well kept, there are 3 or 4 people on every entrance to a building and they are all watching you. One or two are holding knives or playing mubly-peg. If you actually pay attention, most of them wear coats even though the day is warm.

You pull into a roadside bar and there are more motorcycles than cars. And the bikes all show wear and tear, it's not some biker bar for CEO's. When you go inside to get directions, the place smells of stale bear and decay. No one has a smile on there face.

You interrupt a group having a BBQ in the park looking for some friends you are looking for. Though it may be subtle, they all start to react as one, aware of you and looking about. They all have similar hair-cuts or tattoos. They are all in peak physical shape, except for the guy with artificial legs and still looks ready for anything.

In real life, most of us know when we are in a place that is not normal for us. Sights, sounds, smells, instinct. Most of us know that when in such a place it is dangerous to us, if for no other reason than we know we don't know the dangers.

Conveying that same sense in a game can be tough. And you will get it wrong at the beginning, or your players will ignore it because your playing a game and they are heroes after all. Then you can use the suggestions above to educate them. And if they still don't learn or you fail to get the message through. Well, it's only a game and they can roll up new characters pretty easily.

 

[schnee]

Gonna be honest, as a player, that would just come across as flavor text. I need something that comes across as "Here be CR9s." Footprints as wide as a man's height, a dozen corpses that look to have been incinerated simultaneously, etc.

Yeah, that's fair.

 

[Imaculata]

I wouldn't have even gone that far. The player made an assumption. He or she did not verify that somehow by taking action in the game. You know what they say about assuming. As long as I've done an adequate job describing its size and destructive potential, I've set up a fair situation. It's on the players in my view to verify their assumptions before acting on them - or pay the price if they're wrong.

I'm always a bit cautious that I might not have clearly described the scene to my players. So I prefer to give them a bit of an extra warning, before they do something incredibly stupid.

 

[robus]

I think what my players need is just a bit more information than what is given in the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure. One bit of information they need is that air is the weakest element, followed by water, earth, and fire. If knowing that they still want to go to the fire dungeon, I'm fine with that.

I'm playing a shortened version of Lost Mine of Phandelver (without the mine, so just to level 3) before PotA, and I'll change the dragon cultists in that adventure to air cultists, and also make Glasstaff take order from the air cultists instead of the Black Spider. That should get things started without the players being totally lost.

As a player in an aimless game of PotA (now defunct) I would recommend figuring out some way for the players to know they've accomplished something. The idea presented earlier of some kind of key that opens a deeper section of the dungeon would be good. We just kept going and going and it just became a meaningless slog.

 

[jasper]

The OP has 3 choices.
1. Not tell the group they are out their league and let the dice fall where they may.
2. Outside of the game tell the group they are out their league and let the dice fall where they may.
3. Inside the game with an NPC CLUE BY FOUR tell the group they are out their league and let the dice fall where they may.
Number 2 is the easiest and gets the dm out any gripes the group has. Number 1 is easy to do if the group does not pick up the clues. And number 3 should be use as needed.