D&D 5E How do players know they are in the "wrong" location in a sandbox campaign?

[schnee]

I don't think that's what they are saying. You seem to be conflating "Scaling the enemies so they aren't instantly deadly or absurdly easy" with "Making sure the PC's always win".


There's a difference between "Making it possible to succeed" and "Making it impossible to fail".

If level 1 characters were in the Middle Earth 'sandbox' then would you make it 'possible to succeed' if they waltzed up to the front gates of Mordor?

(OK, I admit, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

 

[iserith]

Isn't the goal for everybody to have fun at all times? I do believe that there is a level range where a fight is interesting and fun; anything below is boringly easy, everything above is frustrating. The level range can be large, but a sandbox which has both level 1 and level 20 encounters just isn't going to work.

It works just fine and is fair as long as the players are aware of the difficulty of the challenges beforehand and are therefore capable of making informed choices.

 

[Elon Tusk]

...a sandbox which has both level 1 and level 20 encounters just isn't going to work.

I totally disagree. I believe a sandbox should have a very large range of encounters.
If a group of beginner PCs decide to tackle the most powerful being in their world, that's on them.
If a group of 20th level players want to kick around CR 1 monsters, that's on them as well.
A campaign world should have have areas and inhabitants of various levels; a band of starting halflings could decide to seek Sauron immediately but would hopefully make better decisions such as seeking help or actively trying to avoid him.

I don't understand how a world that didn't have level 1 and level 20 encounters would work - are all the antagonists growing in levels at the same pace as the players or do they just materialize in the world at the exact time the players are able to balance with them?

 

[Elon Tusk]

If level 1 characters were in the Middle Earth 'sandbox' then would you make it 'possible to succeed' if they waltzed up to the front gates of Mordor?

Ha . We came up with the Mordor scenario at the same time to illustrate opposite opinions.

Of course I'd make it possible. It'd be a dumb decision, but I'm not going to stop them from making dumb decisions; I don't believe that is a DM's job.
But I would think it would be contextually obvious how dangerous Mordor is both from second-hand knowledge and from physical perception as they approached it.

If my game was Marvel Superheroes and I put the young heroes of Power Pack in a room that had a door labelled 'Galactus Portal: Do Not Enter!" I wouldn't prevent them from opening the door.

 

[Caliban]

If level 1 characters were in the Middle Earth 'sandbox' then would you make it 'possible to succeed' if they waltzed up to the front gates of Mordor?

(OK, I admit, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I mean.)

Bad example - Middle Earth wasn't a "sandbox". It was pretty linear, with a High Level DM PC shepherding them along the correct path. They couldn't get to the gates of Mordor until they were of the appropriate level.


Me personally? In my home game I definitely have encounters ranging from 1 to 20 littered around the world. But if they run into one of the high level areas, they get plenty of warning and I don't instantly overwhelm them in the first encounter - I give them time to realize they are in over their heads and give them an opportunity to run, or capture them.

Or if they insist on being suicidal, I'd probably let them die. But that hasn't happened.

Other times I've forced encounters on them that were clearly out of their weight class, but added factors to even the odds, or made it clear it wasn't going to be a combat encounter unless they tried to make it one. Because I want them to get the sense of how dangerous the world is, but also feel that they can make a difference.

It's not just the DM showing off his badass NPC's who are going to be the real focus of the story while the characters do fetch quests and deliver rings to volcano's for them.

 

[Satyrn]

Isn't the goal for everybody to have fun at all times? I do believe that there is a level range where a fight is interesting and fun; anything below is boringly easy, everything above is frustrating. The level range can be large, but a sandbox which has both level 1 and level 20 encounters just isn't going to work.

Well, it does depend on what the people playing find fun.

Some people probably need to know their 8th level party could stumble into a truly deadly fight in order to have fun fighting their level 8 foes. And meanwhile, they may need those level 1 encounters, too, to get the fun of seeeing their advancement - and maybe expect that when the boredom the third or fourth such easy fights might bring, they can narrate them away instead of playing them out in detail.


And I gotta say, if I'm being presented a sandbox, I don't want to come across bandits that keep leveling up with me, wearing glass armor when before they had leather.

 

[Satyrn]

And I gotta say, if I'm being presented a sandbox, I don't want to come across bandits that keep leveling up with me, wearing glass armor when before they had leather.

Oh. Sorry about that, everyone.

I didn't get the memo telling us that Middle Earth was today's special.

 

[schnee]

Isn't the goal for everybody to have fun at all times? I do believe that there is a level range where a fight is interesting and fun; anything below is boringly easy, everything above is frustrating. The level range can be large, but a sandbox which has both level 1 and level 20 encounters just isn't going to work.

Look at our world.

Level 1 encounter? Stealing a purse.
Level 20 encounter? Breaking in to the Pentagon.

For the level 20 encounters, there tends to be a LOT of barriers in the way to get to them. Long distances, or harsh terrain, linguistic or cultural barriers, security, people, etcetera.

You can live in a Level 1 world and 'brush up' against a wide range of people. But, the bigger the differential, the bigger the 'cushion' in between. In a more lawless place, there are plenty of 'markers' that tell you you're getting into risky business - boarded up windows, suspicious people, decay, trash (and my favorite, signs and barriers saying WARNING LAND MINES) - and you generally have to intentionally ignore those and soldier on before you get into truly deadly stuff.

Hell - I rode my bike through the Balkans recently. I felt fine. Dangerous neighborhoods were always off the beaten path a bit, and easy to spot when you were getting close to one. The local 'gangsters' or other people you just didn't want to with stood out like a sore thumb - and if you kept your distance and weren't an idiot, you were safe. You could always get pickpocketed, but to be in any real danger you had to look for it.

SO

Level 1 characters dealing directly with Level 20 threats should not happen - due to the Level 20 characters not noticing the Level 1s. They should just breeze on by, in an impressive fashion, and as long as the Level 1s are not idiots, they'll be fine - in the same way a world leader's motorcade will roll through, and you can get really close to watch, but do one idiotic move and highly trained people will take you down.

So, IMO, when Level 1 characters experience the world, they generally start encountering gradually elevated challenges the closer they get to danger - a goblin, five goblins, a dozen goblins, etcetera - and a good sandbox will generally work that way. Those challenges can be terrain that gets more difficult, distances that are more effort, cultural barriers that act as a soft 'buffer' between you and the information or progress you seek, security like walls and warning signs, patrols that get gradually less 'friendly' the closer you get, etcetera.

It's a communication issue. The sandbox style of play requires a lot more of it, and it has to be done well. It's definitely not for every player, and especially not for every DM.

 

[schnee]

Bad example - Middle Earth wasn't a "sandbox". It was pretty linear, with a High Level DM PC shepherding them along the correct path. They couldn't get to the gates of Mordor until they were of the appropriate level.

Well played.

Me personally? In my home game I definitely have encounters ranging from 1 to 20 littered around the world. But if they run into one of the high level areas, they get plenty of warning and I don't instantly overwhelm them in the first encounter - I give them time to realize they are in over their heads and give them an opportunity to run, or capture them.

if they insist on being suicidal, I'd probably let them die. But that hasn't happened.

Yeah, we're pretty much the same. See my incredibly long post above where I beat that concept to death with words.

 

[Satyrn]

That is an excellent description to inspire how to think about approaching the sandbox design and description.