How do you deal with canon fanatics?

[jdrakeh]

There's just no demand, insinuation, or anything like that, that your campaign should follow it.

Yes, I know that. In your attempts to act as an apologist for TSR, you seem to be overlooking the fact that this thread is very specifically about people who do not believe that (i.e., canon fanatics).

How can it be an excuse of TSR when it began years before TSR bought rights to the Realms and before any freelancer inconsistencies had appeared?

I wouldn't know. I've only seen TSR D&D product, not Greenwood's original works. And none of the FR 1e material that I own is authored by an "unreliable narrator" -- it is, in fact, incredibly consistent (clear up and through the Time of Troubles, much to my chagrin).

 

[The_Gut]

Oh, I agree, I fell in love with the Forgotten Realms waaaaayyy back in the day, when you only heard about them as the background in dragon magazine articles like "seven magical blades", and etc. Great history and detail, and the first few supplements were like that.

Then it all started to get out of hand....

That said - Its your world, change it how you want. Warn your players beforehand that you are making changes.

For an incredibly awesome independant world, check out True20's Blood throne setting. Or at least read the demo

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21609

I know True20 as a system didn't work for you, but the setting is one of the best.

 

[Faraer]

Yes, I know that. In your attempts to act as an apologist for TSR, you seem to be overlooking the fact that this thread is very specifically about people who do not believe that (i.e., canon fanatics).

I'm far from an apologist for TSR! I dislike many aspects of how they handled the Realms, including the Time of Troubles, just as you do. What I'm talking about is something that Ed stressed consistently and TSR usually downplayed, except a few specific cases when they did want to take advantage of it to cover glitches, such as with FR5.

How am I overlooking that by reinforcing ruleslawyer's point that ironically the canon-lawyering you mention is alien to the spirit and, often, the explicit advice of the sources that bear that 'canon'?

I wouldn't know. I've only seen TSR D&D product, not Greenwood's original works.

I'm not talking about unpublished works, but the Dragon articles where the Realms saw print, which presented themselves not as god's-eye truth but as gossip passed to Ed by inhabitants of Faerûn, who would sometimes point out each other's unreliability! Both before and after 1987, and because of both their fallibility and their agendas. I can give quotes if you like.

And none of the FR 1e material that I own is authored by an "unreliable narrator" -- it is, in fact, incredibly consistent (clear up and through the Time of Troubles, much to my chagrin).

So how do you interpret my quote, the advice in the DM's Sourcebook that NPC levels should be changed to suit campaign needs and foil players who 'read too much', FR2 Moonshae being 'written by' Flamsterd, FR5 The Savage Frontier by Amelior Amanitas, and other information framed as relayed via Realms folk, the frequent explicit casting of information in terms of 'it is rumored' or 'it is thought', the clear (even heavy-handed) emphasis on Volo's untrustworthiness (OK, 2E)? Not to mention Ed's own comments, which you have no reason to doubt, and which are plainly made to encourage creativity, not to excuse anything. The pre-Avatar Crisis sources, mostly (in the conceit) imparted via Elminster, are largely consistent with themselves (though the freelancer problem had started by then, as it happens) because the point of this device is to support DM invention, not to confuse those DMs who do want to use the material as-is more often that not.

Outside the narration mode, many things like the full roster of the Lords of Waterdeep and the working of gates were left undefined similarly to counter players trying to compel the DM to what they'd read.

 

[Corinth]

The selling point of an official setting is that everyone knows exactly what's there, and thus what to expect, when they sit down to play. Deviating from the canon dilutes that quality, and it doesn't take much deviation to render such a quality utterly useless- you might as well brew your own. For the same reason that everyone expect the rules of a D&D game to be consistent across tables, so it is with setting canon; the work is already done for you, so all you have to do is plug it in and play the game- the variety comes from the regions features (rules modules--psi, TOB, etc.--used) and not from the whims of the GM.

There is only one world, and everyone that plays there plays in that one world. That's the argument at work here, and it is both valid and powerful. The MMORPG as a medium entirely depends upon it.

 

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

I don't deal with them. At most, I say "Hmm, is that what your PC has heard? Well, it seems he's received some inaccurate information somewhere along the line..."

I agree with this approach the most...Although, it is a mark of a particularly gracious DM which I am not always known for. Depending on the attitude of the overlooking of RULE ZERO from the Dmg or and Game Mastering manual I find that sometimes the player needs a direct approach toward them more than their character.

In extreme cases of rules lawyering and Cannonizing I have been known to say things like this little speach," As a DM for a long time, I have discovered that I have a very strong opinion about role playing games and I believe you are entittled to hear it if you play with me for very long out of concern for you as a player.

Role playing is a modern adaption to the ancient art of storytelling which also had variation and added themes, including contradiction from time to time.

If you don't feel like you can handle a ROLE PLAYING situation perhaps you should reconsider playing a game with others who do. Consider this a piece of advice from someone whom doesn't believe a card game or video game are as exceptional as a role playing game.

And a Chastisement, even.

Consider what I have just said as someone whom is concerned with your growth as a role player and one whom also knows not everyone is cut out for role playing.

I am not taking offense yet you need to realize this. Or all our times are going to be wasted on petty aurguments instead of a good time......I am going for a short walk to get some things. Perhaps you should decide yourself and by talking to some of the other players here to decide what you think. I welcome you as a player but not as a rival."

Leave for about 5 to 8 minutes and them return. Talk to all your players as equals yet be firm about your job as arbitraiter of more than just the rules......The world is your responsiblity. If they leave your game respect their choice and if they come back, welcome them.

Do not let them bring in anyone to railroad the Game Master/Dungeon Master or the personal manipulation has gone too far and is unhealthy for everyone. Let the players realize that running a game is a job and a duty you perform with dignity. If you must give them a link to this post and tell them you agree with me.

Out of 20+ times over the last 20 years of giving speaches like this only 3 times were things not right by the time I returned. Each time were with different players. Once someone left and didn't return and twice someone returned with someone else to try and pick the aurgument back up..........They were looking for an aurgument not a role playing game.

 

[Asmor]

The selling point of an official setting is that everyone knows exactly what's there, and thus what to expect, when they sit down to play. Deviating from the canon dilutes that quality, and it doesn't take much deviation to render such a quality utterly useless- you might as well brew your own. For the same reason that everyone expect the rules of a D&D game to be consistent across tables, so it is with setting canon; the work is already done for you, so all you have to do is plug it in and play the game- the variety comes from the regions features (rules modules--psi, TOB, etc.--used) and not from the whims of the GM.

There is only one world, and everyone that plays there plays in that one world. That's the argument at work here, and it is both valid and powerful. The MMORPG as a medium entirely depends upon it.

You have a good argument, up until that last bit about MMORPGs. Not only is that a total non-sequitor, it's not even true. In fact, it's a fairly disingenuous comparison to make. I see what you're trying to say, that every player of WoW gets to play in the same setting, but so what? Everyone in my homebrew campaign gets to play in the same setting as well. Just because the scale's much larger doesn't change the fact that every MMORPG is a single game, a homebrew setting, and run by a single entity. So what if a few hundred thousand players play it?

That said, I think there is some merit in that statement. In theory, a published campaign setting could be like an MMORPG in that it's almost like everyone who plays it is playing in the same world. The Elf played by Bob from Alaska may have passed the Dwarf played by Wong in Singapore on the streets of Baldur's Gate.

Personally, I don't find that terribly interesting myself, but I could understand the allure.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The selling point of an official setting is that everyone knows exactly what's there, and thus what to expect, when they sit down to play.

Is that really the major selling point? It seems for jdrakeh the main selling point is that it greatly reduces the amount of prep work he'll have to do.

 

[Treebore]

Is that really the major selling point? It seems for jdrakeh the main selling point is that it greatly reduces the amount of prep work he'll have to do.

Thats why I buy settings. I take what is written and change whatever I feel the need to. I don't buy settings and modules to be "locked into" their concepts and ideas. I buy it to use as a base and for inspiration to go further, or along totally different lines.

So yeah, I guess I am a bit of a homebrew, but since I am the one who bought the boxed set, or setting book, its my choice as to where to go with it.

I generally stick close to canon, but with FR I threw a lot of those novels and the Time of Troubles/Avatar stuff pretty much right out the window.

Same with Greyhawk Wars. It was stuff I didn't want in my campaign. I just told the players to think of those resources as "Bards Tales", because that is all they are in my version of those settings.

Besides, I was running GH and Faerun before any of the canon I considered to be junk came out. So my "vision" has senority anyhow.

 

[Mallus]

I have a simple solution. Write your own canon. Preferably with a friend or two. Being slightly under the influence doesn't hurt either...

That way, no-one can argue if you should present what amounts to the settings BBEG, say, an invulnerable fallen Celestial, as a slightly distracted fop who can usually be found in a certain hotel bar drinking gin martinis and playing canasta.

Because that'll be canon. And it is, in my World of CITY!

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

I agree with this approach the most...Although, it is a mark of a particularly gracious DM which I am not always known for. Depending on the attitude of the overlooking of RULE ZERO from the Dmg or and Game Mastering manual I find that sometimes the player needs a direct approach toward them more than their character.

In extreme cases of rules lawyering and Cannonizing I have been known to say things like this little speach," As a DM for a long time, I have discovered that I have a very strong opinion about role playing games and I believe you are entittled to hear it if you play with me for very long out of concern for you as a player.

Role playing is a modern adaption to the ancient art of storytelling which also had variation and added themes, including contradiction from time to time.

If you don't feel like you can handle a ROLE PLAYING situation perhaps you should reconsider playing a game with others who do. Consider this a piece of advice from someone whom doesn't believe a card game or video game are as exceptional as a role playing game.

And a Chastisement, even.

Consider what I have just said as someone whom is concerned with your growth as a role player and one whom also knows not everyone is cut out for role playing.

I am not taking offense yet you need to realize this. Or all our times are going to be wasted on petty aurguments instead of a good time......I am going for a short walk to get some things. Perhaps you should decide yourself and by talking to some of the other players here to decide what you think. I welcome you as a player but not as a rival."

Leave for about 5 to 8 minutes and them return. Talk to all your players as equals yet be firm about your job as arbitraiter of more than just the rules......The world is your responsiblity. If they leave your game respect their choice and if they come back, welcome them.

Do not let them bring in anyone to railroad the Game Master/Dungeon Master or the personal manipulation has gone too far and is unhealthy for everyone. Let the players realize that running a game is a job and a duty you perform with dignity. If you must give them a link to this post and tell them you agree with me.

Out of 20+ times over the last 20 years of giving speaches like this only 3 times were things not right by the time I returned. Each time were with different players. Once someone left and didn't return and twice someone returned with someone else to try and pick the aurgument back up..........They were looking for an aurgument not a role playing game.

Spoken like a pure Storyteller. I look forward to the current campaign I'm in with you.