How do you handle hit points?

Hussar

Legend
/snip
Switching it around doesn't change anything with regard to how hit point loss happens in the fiction. The player is still losing("spending") hit points to avoid death, but when he hits 0, he's still dying one moment and running a marathon the next, or healing the gash in a day. The potential contradictions are still there. The only difference is that it's the player describing the potential contradictions and not the DM.

Hang on. Nope, not in 5e you're not dying when reduced to 0 HP. You are potentially dying, but, depending on the dice, you very well might not be. Thus, you cannot narrate anything that leads to death until you've failed that third death save. You simply don't know.

But, sure, the player can describe potential contradictions, but, that's the player's problem, not mine.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Hang on. Nope, not in 5e you're not dying when reduced to 0 HP. You are potentially dying, but, depending on the dice, you very well might not be. Thus, you cannot narrate anything that leads to death until you've failed that third death save. You simply don't know.

This is wrong. You are dying from the moment that you have to make your first death save. When you miss your third, you are dead, not dying. In order to hit dead, you MUST be dying first. If you make three saves before you miss three, you stop dying and stabilize. That's the rule. You STABILIZE. You can't stabilize from not dying, because if you weren't dying you'd already be stable and wouldn't be making any death saves. Further, the death save rule says this...

"Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life."

You cannot be creeping closer to death without being in the process of dying.
 

Hussar

Legend
This is wrong. You are dying from the moment that you have to make your first death save. When you miss your third, you are dead, not dying. In order to hit dead, you MUST be dying first. If you make three saves before you miss three, you stop dying and stabilize. That's the rule. You STABILIZE. You can't stabilize from not dying, because if you weren't dying you'd already be stable and wouldn't be making any death saves. Further, the death save rule says this...

"Whenever you start your turn with 0 hit points, you must make a special saving throw, called a death saving throw, to determine whether you creep closer to death or hang onto life."

You cannot be creeping closer to death without being in the process of dying.

Unfortunately, it also makes zero sense if you play that way. Because, you can go from 2 strikes to 100% unharmed, without magic, in 1 hour. So, how could that wound actually be creeping you closer to death when you can spend HD, second wind, whatever, and be completely unharmed? Now, sure, we can talk in terms of the game that you are closer to death. But, until you shuffle off the mortal coil, no wound can be described as truly life threatening without contradiction.

To be fair though, 99% of people really, REALLY don't care and describe wounds however the heck they like anyway. :D Contradictions rank so far down on the player's radar that, frankly, who cares?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Unfortunately, it also makes zero sense if you play that way.

Okay, cool. So you can change it, but that's the way it happens in 5e.

Because, you can go from 2 strikes to 100% unharmed, without magic, in 1 hour. So, how could that wound actually be creeping you closer to death when you can spend HD, second wind, whatever, and be completely unharmed? Now, sure, we can talk in terms of the game that you are closer to death. But, until you shuffle off the mortal coil, no wound can be described as truly life threatening without contradiction.

I get your issue with it. It seems like a good house rule for you to rule that they aren't dying, but then you have an issue where nothing is life threatening, but then you die for some unknown reason when you hit 3 death saves, which is also contradictory. Or else you have schrodingers wounds, which are both life threatening and not life threatening at the same time. Neither of those situations make sense, either.

To be fair though, 99% of people really, REALLY don't care and describe wounds however the heck they like anyway. :D Contradictions rank so far down on the player's radar that, frankly, who cares?

I don't think it's 99%, but I still agree with the gist of that. I've noticed a high majority don't care. :)
 

Celebrim

Legend
Whoa,,,,

So much for that…

Oh, I get it now, you meant you didn't want me hijacking this thread with a lengthy dissertation. ;)

Sorry, it's me.

Actually, while I admit to the whole lengthy dissertation thing, I don't admit to the hijacking. The meaning of a 'hit point' and how they are handled narratively is something that has been talked to death for years now, and for a while there was a topic that invariably got a thread closed. No one else was really saying anything that hadn't been said before, and you made by far the most original comment in this thread. So I'm quite happy to glom on to that idea and run with it like a 1e AD&D thief with a fat wallet.

I think you'll find that most of the time during these conversations about GMing theory, both sides are exaggerating the differences in play style to a certain extent and that for the most part, were we the players at the table we wouldn't mind too much the slight differences. But thinking about different approaches to the art and science of GMing or to how we might use the rules of a game differently is I think useful.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
But, it's not self-narration is it? The orc still attacks you. You're narrating why the orc didn't just cave in your skull with his club.

Any time you are narrating what your PC does, it's self narration. Nothing prevents the PC from saying, after he's hit by a blow, that he the character remains stalwart and unphased, or that he the character dodged nimbly aside so that the blow only glanced off doing minimal damage. Players are allowed to narrate that they are cool and awesome, especially when they are being cool and awesome.

It's not your success or failure that you're narrating. Not really. You're narrating the monster's failure to achieve whatever that monster is trying to do.

Sure, but the monster didn't fail. The monster the "hit". Your narrating how you mitigated the monster's success with your skill, or magical prowess, or divine favor, or simply being as tough as nails. I mean, as long as it's only color, I have no problem with a PC M-U narrating how he turned the blow aside with a spontaneous magical aura of protection, ending up with only a scratch. That's perfectly valid self-narration and its not breaking the rules in any way because what the rules determined to happen - the loss of 4 hit points - still happened. It's just color of the fiction, and in as much as color of the fiction is about the PC, the player is fully within his rights to use whatever color he wants. And that, in my opinion, applies to D&D in the RAW because D&D doesn't define contradicting process of play where only DMs are allowed to provide narration.

Again, at my table the following rule prevails - I won't provide color of fiction to your PC's thoughts, words, or actions (without their consent) and in turn the player will not add anything to the setting through of narration (without my consent).

And, sure, it's not really a choice, more of a HP tax on narration. You have to pay every time, you have no real choice in the matter. But, it's still YOU paying, not the DM telling you what happens. It makes the players active participants rather than simply receiving whatever the DM wants to dish out.

Sure, you could as a GM require all players to provide the color of fiction and to give narration after all fortune rolls. You don't need the concept of "spending" hit points to do that. You just simply tell the player to provide combat narration the same way you might tell a player to provide some dialogue if they are engaged in social role play. I just tend to prefer to leave combat narration voluntarily because there are plenty of occasions where combat narration becomes redundant and boring, and you are really for the moment trying to keep the focus of play on tactical wargaming so that the combat goes quickly and doesn't itself become redundant and boring. If something cool happens or the player is inspired, they can of course color the fiction. But I don't find it useful to force to do so.

I learned this from playing games were if you as a player provided color of fiction you were paid in a bonus on your action with bigger bonuses reserved to more creative color of fiction. That gives players a big incentive to provide creative color of fiction. But what I learned is that it didn't actually help the game to require every blow to be described in detail. And in retrospect, that's not surprising because few if any novelists bother to describe every blow in a fight either. The really fun thing that adds to a combat tends to be dialogue between the participants.

I have to admit, I can see a lot of things opening up if you head in this direction.

Give it a try and tell me how it works.
 

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