How do you handle Rogue (Assassins)?

[FrogReaver]

Could hand wave most of the separate exploration with a few rolls. Roll a stealth check to determine if you were spotted. Roll a perception check to see what you spotted. Report back to the group X hours later.

 

[AriochQ]

Also an issue in scouting with a familiar. I have something of a solution for that on Roll20, but at a table game, it's the worst.

Just curious, what is your roll20 solution? I generally use my octopus familiar to set off traps hehe. My familiar hates me. I am level 13 and he has died 33 times so far lol.

 

[iserith]

Just curious, what is your roll20 solution? I generally use my octopus familiar to set off traps hehe. My familiar hates me. I am level 13 and he has died 33 times so far lol.

I set up the familiar's token such that everyone can see through it. Plus I use dynamic lighting. So at least everyone gets a fun little visual where they see through the familiar's eyes to the actual limits of its vision, under the idea that the caster is describing what he or she sees to the rest of the party. As opposed to just hearing my description and staring at a blank screen.

 

[SansMoins]

Just how far ahead is the rogue getting?

 

[Coralirahd]

To clarify, I am not trying to nerf the Assassinate ability. I actually would like to be more generous with the surprise condition to encourage the rogue to stay with the group. I'm looking for more of a carrot solution.

I have read through many of the replies to your question, and see many viable solutions. Personally, I would just be sure to apply any home-rules you make to the player's adversaries as well. The first time the group pisses off the local thieves guild, and they get jumped in a surprise situation, they will probably want to reconsider any lax surprise rules.

 

[pogre]

Just how far ahead is the rogue getting?

It varies in the past. Typically exploring enough ahead of the party so there noise is not an issue. The current rogue has really only done it once to scout out some ruins.

 

[ccs]

That's a very legitimate play style that seems to work well for your group and that is awesome. It also is very different from what I want at my table. I don't want people to take the game "seriously" per se, but I do want everyone engaged most of the time. I prefer that players are not distracted by phones, models, side conversations, etc.

Again, not intended as a criticism of how your table operates - just wanted to elaborate on my goals for my table's playing style.

Well, you asked how I'd handle it at my table.

I think you're problem is mostly of your own making. It sounds like you're spending too much focus on the rogues solo actions at a time.
The answer is not keeping all the characters together. It's finding that happy medium where you can switch back & forth between rogue/others and leaving everyone feeling involved. Do that & you won't need to modify any rules.

 

[ccs]

Mileage will vary with this method. One of my concerns would be that the rogue would tend to monopolize all the 'ah-ha' moments. They see everything first and tend to make most of the checks. For short intervals that isn't bad, but on a continuing basis I am betting most of my groups would grow bored (and start building tanks during the session! hahah).

How much the rogue sees 1st, how many Ah-Ha moments they'll have, etc is completely in the DMs control. If they're seeing too much, then it's the DMs fault.

Don't mistake my tank builder for being bored. Or distracted. He's just multi-tasking. He's perfectly able to talk about D&D while trimming mold lines or gluing the treads on yet another panzer. Now & then he'll need someone else to roll a d20 for him though....

It really comes down to how you balance the realism/fun dynamic. In a realistic setting it makes perfect sense for a rogue to always scout ahead. In a 'we play this game for fun' setting, it tends to detract from the fun factor for everyone else. There is no right answer, it all depends on what a group prefers.

How much sense it makes to go scouting ahead is determined by the situation.

As for "We play this game for fun" & solo actions detracting from that? Eh, maybe for your group. Definitely not for anyone I've ever played with.

 

[cooperjer]

I've had one assassin in my home game and one in my AL game. The one in my AL game talked with players at the table to setup a few assassinate attempts. The player has worked to have the highest initiative, and thus can utilize the assassinate feature. The player at my home game was not feeling like the assassinate feature was well balanced with the features from other classes. We worked together and came up with some house rules to help the class work well in a dungeon delve. These rules help with the class to work in a dungeon that is well lit to dark. It also allowed the group to work together and not require the rogue to sneak ahead of the barbarian and paladin to gain the benefit of the features. We played to level 10 with the rogue assassin character, and thus those rules have been play tested. The player didn't feel like they were too powerful and had fun making decisions on when to utilize the assassinate resource. We didn't use the poison features I put into the class, so those were not play tested.

Assassin level 3
Bonus Proficiencies: Same as PH: proficiency with disguise and poisoner's kit.
Assassinate: If the character makes an attack at a creature that does not perceive it and the character does not have disadvantage then the hit is considered a critical hit. The assassin can use this feature four times per day. You regain all spent assassinates when you finish a short or long rest. You gain one additional use of this feature at levels 7 and 10. You gain two additional uses of this feature at level 18. This is in addition to the text for assassinate.
Poison Specialist: An assassin selects 1 favored poison type from: ingestd, inhaled, contact, or injury. When you make an intelligence or wisdom check related to the favored poison type your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill you are proficient in. While traveling or during down time you may forage for poison ingredients per the Poisoner's Kit Homebrew by making an Intelligence (Poisoners Kit) roll DC 15. Success results in 1d4+Intelligence bonus ingredients gathered.

Assassin lvl 9
Poison Expertise: Creatures have disadvantage on saves against poisons you craft.
Infiltration Expertise: Same text as per PH.

Assassin lvl 13
The assassin can cast the Invisibility spell as an action without needing material components. The assassin can cast this a number of times equal to their Intelligence bonus. They regain used spells after a long rest.
Impostor: Same text as per PH.

Assassin lvl 15
Relentless Assassin: Starting at level 15, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Assassinate remaining, you regain one use of it.

The design of these features is based on the battlemaster fighter. The barbarian and paladin players did not indicate they felt like the assassin was doing too much damage and overshadowing them in that role.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

Ahh, but that assumes there are no neutral or friendly characters which would not be expecting a person to suddenly stab them in the back the moment they turn around, but at the same time those characters are presenting a significant obstacle to the PCs (something an evil or neutral assassin might figure a quick stab will rectify better than doing something else to achieve a goal).

A simple situation would be some entity of the time is convinced he/she/it has won the PCs over or otherwise has them in a position where they are doing what he/she/it wants. Assassin character needs to break sight with a believable excuse (Entity turns around to get something or do something, Entity is engaged in conversation with a party member, the rogue convinces the entity that he wants to do something in a different part of the room while entity is engaged), stealth high enough, be close enough, and then plant an appropriate weapon in he/she/it's back (or throw it). I know in the campaign I have played, which is a year long, there have been many a instance where a battle could have been made easier by this very action. Where the opponent is trying to trick the party, often times succeeding because we really seem to not like landing the first blow and just let a thing talk us into thinking it is what it says it is.

All of this is happening out of combat. RAW really only requires that the DM designate a creature surprised for a round. Just because it goes first does not mean it is not longer surprised. It could very well be that the rogue no longer gets its sneak attack dice, but it does get a critical hit at the least.

If the party is not in initiative, the opponent cannot see the aggressor, and the aggressor sneaks high enough to not be sensed or otherwise makes a ranged attack while not sensed, then it is a surprise round and somebody is surprised.

Your solution is "have the DM adjudicate the situation outside of RAW."

That's a fine solution for your table, but that's not how Surprise rules work, RAW.

From the Sage Advice Rules Compendium's eludidation on Surprise:

Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round? No, here’s how surprise works. The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” on page 189 of the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” on page 194 of the Player’s Handbook). To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares. If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.

In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.

If you attempt to Attack a Surprised creature, Initiative is rolled and combat begins.

Your DM may rule otherwise (and they are well within their rights to do so), but that doesn't mean that if you adjudicate the game like the game is written, the Assassin doesn't stop being a garbage pail of a subclass.