How do you handle sizes?

[Starsunder]

I have the Pathfinder prefix selected, because that's the rules set im using, but actually what im referencing here is from the 3ed MM. With that out of the way...

How do you handle creature sizes? What I mean by that is, under creature advancement, it gives HD maximums, and size increases at certain intervals. Typically, in the creatures fluff, the base size will be given; im going to use the balor here because im working on one for my current campaign (see the Question about Sigils inhabitants thread for more details).

Now, the MM says that balors are about 12ft. tall on average, with 20 HD as a base. Once they reach 31 HD, their size increases to huge. They can have up to 60 HD. My balor is going to have 52 HD. Im looking at making him 35ft tall, as I want him to be extremely physically imposing.

Now, here is where the questions start to appear. The monster manual doesent give a upper height limit for monsters. At the back of the book, there is a size chart, and the size huge maxes out at 32ft. However, several monsters in the book break that rule. But by the same token, just because the size huge maxes out at 32ft doesent mean that a monster that can advance to huge has to; huge starts at 16ft, so there is a lot of wiggle room there.

So, thats my question. How do you determine size of advanced monsters?

 

[Meridius]

Mostly guesswork. If a creature would be 'a little' bigger than 32 ft, then he's still huge. As he would get kind of fat if we go with a 'gargantuan miniature footprint'. A fat Balor wouldn't quite be that imposing.

The size categories are more like names for the 'miniature footprints' in squares. It's a guideline to make our job easier. Not harder. Since his hit-dice say 'huge', just use the 'huge' category and state he's 'about 35 ft. tall'. No player is going to fret over those 3 feet and it saves you an awful lot of work.

Alternatively you can just look at where gargantuan starts, and that's the upper limit to huge But I would go with the above, since the Balor's HD and thus his DC are based on that huge footprint, not on a gargantuan one.

Hope I could've been of help!

 

[Kerrick]

When I went over the monsters for Project Phoenix (my 3.5 revision), I had to overhaul the creation guidelines. Here's what I came up with. I went over the process of creating a monster from scratch, step-by-step, with examples using one of the ones on the site. Hope it helps.

 

[pawsplay]

You could ask yourself how much more imposing the balor is at 35 feet instead of 32. Or you can ponder whether those three feet put him over to the next category. My general feeling is that monsters should generally be in the same size category as most monsters of their species, unless they go more than about 10% over the next category, in which case I might make them a unique creature.

 

[fanboy2000]

I handled it by not increasing a creature's size when I advanced it's HD. There are a number of reasons I did so: 1) I often chose a creature for it's size. So, making it bigger would defeat that. 2) The rule doesn't make any sense to me. Why would a creature that's more powerful be taller and wider than the rest of it's species. Mr. Universe may have more muscle than me, but he's still a medium size creature. 3) Shortage of huge, gargantuan, and colossal miniatures. And 4) I just didn't want to.

My suggestion to you is make the balor whatever size you feel it should be.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Starsunder!

The way to do this is to seperate monster types into two brackets. The first is those of natural physiognomy, the second is those of unnatural physiognomy (constructs, fey, outsiders and undead).

For creatures of natural physiognomy, assign 1 HD per 2 feet tall.

If a creature is equal on two dimensions (such as an elephant), give it 2 HD per 3 feet 'tall' on a side).

If a creature is equal on three dimensions (such as a Beholder), give it 1 HD per foot 'tall'.

Construct Hit Dice should be derived from creator caster level, as should unintelligent Undead.

Fey, Intelligent Undead and Outsiders are effectively immortals. Their unnatural physiognomy means their inherent power is not tied to their Hit Dice.

However, I suggest that their Hit Dice is tied to their effective divinity.

Immortality

15 HD = Hero-deity
20 HD = Quasi-deity
30 HD = Demi-deity
40 HD = Lesser Deity
60 HD = Intermediate Deity
80 HD = Greater Deity
120 HD = Elder One
160 HD = Old One
etc.

So a 52 Hit Dice Balor would effectively be a Lesser Deity...just for the record I woud give Demogorgon (see link for stats) about 50 Hit Dice in 3rd Edition; which I know is a bit different from the myriad 'official' incarnations).

Immortality

 

[Starsunder]

Mostly guesswork. If a creature would be 'a little' bigger than 32 ft, then he's still huge. As he would get kind of fat if we go with a 'gargantuan miniature footprint'. A fat Balor wouldn't quite be that imposing.

The size categories are more like names for the 'miniature footprints' in squares. It's a guideline to make our job easier. Not harder. Since his hit-dice say 'huge', just use the 'huge' category and state he's 'about 35 ft. tall'. No player is going to fret over those 3 feet and it saves you an awful lot of work.

Alternatively you can just look at where gargantuan starts, and that's the upper limit to huge But I would go with the above, since the Balor's HD and thus his DC are based on that huge footprint, not on a gargantuan one.

Hope I could've been of help!

Yeah, the 3 ft. isnt a big deal, but it got me wondering how everyone else deals with advancing or limiting monster size.

Thanks for the advice!

When I went over the monsters for Project Phoenix (my 3.5 revision), I had to overhaul the creation guidelines. Here's what I came up with. I went over the process of creating a monster from scratch, step-by-step, with examples using one of the ones on the site. Hope it helps.

Thats pretty awesome, I will definetly be checking that out!

You could ask yourself how much more imposing the balor is at 35 feet instead of 32. Or you can ponder whether those three feet put him over to the next category. My general feeling is that monsters should generally be in the same size category as most monsters of their species, unless they go more than about 10% over the next category, in which case I might make them a unique creature.

Yeah the 3 ft. are not really a big deal, but I just like the idea of 35 ft. I just keep seeing this huge, scary balor the size of Megatron from the movie.

And besides, the MM breaks this rule a good bit; for example, an Elder Earth Elemental is catagorized as huge, and its 40 ft tall, and 60000 lbs.

I handled it by not increasing a creature's size when I advanced it's HD. There are a number of reasons I did so: 1) I often chose a creature for it's size. So, making it bigger would defeat that. 2) The rule doesn't make any sense to me. Why would a creature that's more powerful be taller and wider than the rest of it's species. Mr. Universe may have more muscle than me, but he's still a medium size creature. 3) Shortage of huge, gargantuan, and colossal miniatures. And 4) I just didn't want to.

My suggestion to you is make the balor whatever size you feel it should be.

I really cant wait for the Pathfinder Bestiary, because I hear that they've done away with the size changes with creature advancement, and have extensive rules on advancing monsters in the book.

 

[fanboy2000]

I really cant wait for the Pathfinder Bestiary, because I hear that they've done away with the size changes with creature advancement, and have extensive rules on advancing monsters in the book.

For monster creation/advancement generally I treated each monster type as a class unto itself based on its entry in the glossary. I then proceeded to make life easier by discarding skill points by simply giving each monster max ranks in a number of skill equal to their skill points+intelligence modifier. (I stole this rule Unearthed Arcana.)

I typically only chose a few feats, and maxed out the hp. Figuring saves and such based on the monster's "class." Towards the end of 3.5, I rarely did this by hand and used e-Tools to make whole sets of monster statbocks, essentially creating my own private monster manuals.

One thing I always over-wrote, even when using e-Tools, was the CR. I made the switch from CR to static XP for monsters a while back and rather than pulling CR from bum every time I made a new monster or radically changed an existing monster, I pulled XP out from it.

Tangent: if you really want to annoy power gamers, say "I don't know" every time they ask you want the CR or EL of the monster/encounter they just fought was.

 

[pawsplay]

I definitely prefer a "ZOMG, that's a biggun" template to more powerful monsters always being pituitary giants or towering angels of symbolism.

 

[Starsunder]

Hi there Starsunder!

The way to do this is to seperate monster types into two brackets. The first is those of natural physiognomy, the second is those of unnatural physiognomy (constructs, fey, outsiders and undead).

For creatures of natural physiognomy, assign 1 HD per 2 feet tall.

If a creature is equal on two dimensions (such as an elephant), give it 2 HD per 3 feet 'tall' on a side).

If a creature is equal on three dimensions (such as a Beholder), give it 1 HD per foot 'tall'.

Construct Hit Dice should be derived from creator caster level, as should unintelligent Undead.

Fey, Intelligent Undead and Outsiders are effectively immortals. Their unnatural physiognomy means their inherent power is not tied to their Hit Dice.

However, I suggest that their Hit Dice is tied to their effective divinity.

Immortality

15 HD = Hero-deity
20 HD = Quasi-deity
30 HD = Demi-deity
40 HD = Lesser Deity
60 HD = Intermediate Deity
80 HD = Greater Deity
120 HD = Elder One
160 HD = Old One
etc.

So a 52 Hit Dice Balor would effectively be a Lesser Deity...just for the record I woud give Demogorgon (see link for stats) about 50 Hit Dice in 3rd Edition; which I know is a bit different from the myriad 'official' incarnations).

Immortality

Hello UK I havent seen you around that much, I trust you've been well?

Thanks for the advice; I fugured that you would have something to say on the matter. The HD ratios tied to physiognomy is interesting. I also like the Construct HD tied to caster level; that's pretty ok.

Honestly, I probably would've put Demogorgon higher than that, at least equal in power to a greater deity. But, that's neither here nor there. I definately understand that at 52 HD, this particular balor is exceedingly powerful, and not the norm at all.