How do you measure "Timing"?

[Celebrim]

Agreed, but I am talking about a situation like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqRdT8m1Suo

Yes, you could just run through and rely on reflex saves, but that would be pretty suicidal. In this case, you really need to understand the timing pattern BEFORE you attempt the challenge.

Ok, but now if you wish to complain about me changing the scenario, I must note we've changed the scenario again and far more drastically than I changed it. In your chosen gauntlet, there is no 'jump' check needed to get from platform to platform at all. The actual pattern once they get in to it is trivially simple and requires no particular athletic ability at all - fitting for actors not known for their stunt work or physical gifts. They simply step forward just after the next obstacle flashes by, and they have several seconds to react before their prior 'platform' is subject to attack. They never have to go backward in the pattern, and they never so far as I can see have to vary their slow advance to skip forward several 'platforms'. There are barely any reflexes involved at all, and in fact I'd rate the reflex save here at about DC 0 because the windows of time they are using are rather large - grandma might not move fast enough but just about anyone else could.

Note however, with the changed scenario you still have a reflex save - albeit a trivial one. It's not at all clear that Concentration has anything to do with this new scenario either. Concentration gives you no ability to discern patterns. Concentration is not an intelligence (planning) or wisdom (perception) based skill. Concentration as it is defined in D&D is a skill of enduring physical hardship. It applies in situations where pain might otherwise distract you from performing a task correctly. It's got nothing to do with understanding traps, machines, or planning your way through an obstacle course. I suppose you might argue that it has do to with avoiding distraction or paralysis due to mental fear, which seems reasonable, but there is a different mechanic that is typically used for that - a Will save. Concentration checks by the rules aren't required in the Galaxy Quest situation. Typically, in the Galaxy Quest situation, D&D doesn't require fear checks either (though my SIPS system does, via a Heart roll, but primarily because SIPS is designed to simulate life as a small child and not life as an Action Hero).

Understanding that the pattern in the Galaxy Quest gauntlet of traps is a simple one that involves a sequential series and that the gauntlet can be navigated sequentially going forward a step at a time is a perception based or intelligence based skill. A person trained in meditation is not necessarily any better at doing it.

In the OP's original scenario, there are swinging/moving platforms that must be jumped between. Planning for or understanding the whole pattern offers no real advantage unless you intend to wait for a point in the pattern that you can jump several platforms in quick succession, which conveys no obvious advantage over waiting for the optimal moment to jump to the second platform, then waiting for the optimal moment to jump to the third, and so forth.

And actually Celebrim, this is already built in to the Rogue class as part of the Trapfinding class feature, provided they train in Disable Device.

Note that Disable Device is an intelligence (planning) based skill. So this is at least a reasonable suggestion for analyzing the pattern in a gauntlet of traps. It silo's the rogues specialty; it involves the right ability score; and the skill is at least related to the subject of the action - devices. While it is a variant use of the skill, of all the RAW skills it's probably the most relevant to understanding the pattern of attacks in a trap scenario. So, sure, I'd buy Disable Device as the skill for analyzing and predicting which squares get attacked next in a regular pattern by a device. But Disable Device is not concentration. It's also has relevance mainly in your 'Galaxy Quest' situation, and not in the OP's moving platform scenarios or any of my slightly altered moving platform scenarios that I've used to illustrate that the OP's scenario is just one case of a general Reflex save pattern.

You are seeking to lower the overall DC of your task by concentrating beforehand to optimize your timing.

This is a very 4e skill challenge approach. Attempting to justify that your unrelated skill gives you a 'success' of some sort in getting through the gauntlet is fine if this is a skill challenge, but it's not, and in any event doesn't address the OP's question of "How do you measure "Timing""? In 3e, matters of timing are matters of a Reflex save.

 

[Abraxus]

OK we are getting somewhere here. Great. Your rationale about Disable Device and intelligence is quite astute, so pattern recognition for most classes should probably play off unskilled intelligence checks. fair enough. Depends whether you can justify the swinging Mario platforms as a trap or not I guess - it's definitely a bit like one.

In the OP's original scenario, there are swinging/moving platforms that must be jumped between. Planning for or understanding the whole pattern offers no real advantage unless you intend to wait for a point in the pattern that you can jump several platforms in quick succession, which conveys no obvious advantage over waiting for the optimal moment to jump to the second platform, then waiting for the optimal moment to jump to the third, and so forth.

Here, I still beg to differ though. There could easily be a huge advantage to jumping several in one go like that depending upon the motion and set-up. You might traverse the area with 2 or 3 well-timed planned jumps instead of using 8 or more dangerous reflexive jumps when doing it on the fly. That is a huge advantage to a wizard or expert well out of their element in the dungeon - especially in the example you mentioned where the platforms are dropping or breaking after you jump.

And you're not going to know if that's the case without scoping out the set-up beforehand and working out the optimal timing you need.

It was a sweet link though right?

 

[Celebrim]

Here, I still beg to differ though. There could easily be a huge advantage to jumping several in one go like that depending upon the motion and set-up.

There more than likely is not. In a typical basic Mario platform, you have pairs of platforms that separate and close together.

Something like:

Stage 1:    ----   ----   ----    ----
Stage 2:     ---- ----      ---- ----
Stage 3:    ----   ----   ----    ----
Stage 4:  ----      ---- ----      ----

I seriously doubt that the OP will be able to plan out and describe real time positioning that is much more complex than that so that he could tell you what the optimal point in the pattern was even if he wanted to.

And in any event, a complex pattern would almost certain involve timing stutter and half steps on platforms to ensure you reached the end of the platforms at exactly the right time and with maximum speed. That's still a timing problem and still a reflex save. Even if intellectually you've figured out you can do it, actually performing the pattern is not an intellectual skill. The difficulty of performing this series of jumps timed to the fraction of a second as part of large coherent plan is a more difficult series of reflex saves rather than a simpler one where you plan only the next move.

This is almost trivially easy to verify by watching how low athleticism persons approach an obstacle course - Japanese game shows are a good choice for research. They almost never attempt it 'fluidly' because that requires too finely of honed reflexes. For example, this is why I suggested the reflex save DC of attempting running jumps was higher than that of attempting standing jumps.

That sort of planning IMO mostly involves what's called in athletics 'ball smarts', and is mostly an aspect of ones dexterity rather than ones academic intellectualism. If you watch a running back juking and weaving in anticipation of how different defenders will move, there is a certain mental agility involved in that, but its not the same sort of mental agility involved in an IQ test. A person can be both smart and clumsy. A clumsy person will look 'stupid' - like a 'dork' - in a test of agility.

 

[Omegaxicor]

This reminds me of the Strength vs Dexterity debate when crossing a river...

Can the OP clarify for the purposes of this discussion: Is the PC in this situation reacting (and therefore reflex) or intentionally taking time to choose when to act (therefore skill or ability check)?

I would say it is a Balance check tied to Strength rather than Dexterity, so they are both right, it is not about redistributing your weight to remain where you are standing it is about standing strong against a push but you have nothing to push against (although I guess you could say it is about choosing your footing carefully so you are stable)

It does seem to be a discussion on the meaning of terms, each person has their own meaning behind Concentration which differs from others' meaning, I think before an action we "concentrate" on the pattern of the platforms but that isn't the D&D definition of Concentration.

The situation isn't fully defined, I got to the point where the party would jump between platforms and decided if there was a way to do this, apparently not an easily defined one, the situation is the "Mario" platforms effect where the platforms move back and forth. The movement could be more complex by having the platforms rotate around so they flip upside down before returning to their original position and having them move at a different speed meaning that a series of jumps won't be enough, you need to plan when to begin your attempt or you might find halfway across the gap the platform you're on rotating (or even receding into the wall) before the next one is in position for you to jump on to.

 

[Celebrim]

I would say it is a Balance check tied to Strength rather than Dexterity, so they are both right, it is not about redistributing your weight to remain where you are standing it is about standing strong against a push but you have nothing to push against (although I guess you could say it is about choosing your footing carefully so you are stable)

Well, that's an interesting compromise but not really supported by the rules.

I'd say that wading in a river with a slippery bottom or otherwise treacherous footing is a balance check, pure and simple. In practice, the balance check is probably fairly easy and only a burdened character or a character in heavy armor is likely to fail.

Strength only comes into play if the river has a significant current, in which case the current is modeled as creature attempting to bull rush or trip the player each round. In this case, high strength helps resist this, and failure results in negative consequences.

The standard balance checks in the SRD don't deal with the person being actively pushed. I'm not aware of whether the RAW deal with the issue of a character being pushed/involuntary movement on slippery surface.

It does seem to be a discussion on the meaning of terms, each person has their own meaning behind Concentration which differs from others' meaning, I think before an action we "concentrate" on the pattern of the platforms but that isn't the D&D definition of Concentration.

Yes, that exactly. Concentration is rather narrowly defined in the rules by what it does. I'm not hidebound to the point that I object to people inventing variant actions you can take with a skill, but it should at least be related to the ability that the skill depends on and suitable to the training of the sorts of classes that receive it as a class skill.

The situation isn't fully defined...

Also true. Sadly, the 3.5 RAW doesn't make skills actually span all possible activities. Because skills are narrowly defined by what they do, rather than what they pertain to, there are undefined gaps where it isn't clear what skill applies to a character's risky proposition.

I got to the point where the party would jump between platforms and decided if there was a way to do this, apparently not an easily defined one, the situation is the "Mario" platforms effect where the platforms move back and forth. The movement could be more complex by having the platforms rotate around so they flip upside down before returning to their original position and having them move at a different speed meaning that a series of jumps won't be enough, you need to plan when to begin your attempt or you might find halfway across the gap the platform you're on rotating (or even receding into the wall) before the next one is in position for you to jump on to.

I don't think the problem is going to be that it isn't easy to define what abilities are relevant and how each particular challenge can be handled. I think that's relatively easy. I think the problem is going to be your ability to deal with continuous complex motion in a turn based system where discrete intervals of time are not defined in smaller than in 6 second units.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Well, that's an interesting compromise but not really supported by the rules.

I was all set to find the exact page/line number to prove you wrong because I KNOW that it IS defined by the rules, sadly it is defined on Page 33 of the DMG "Variant:Skills with different abilities", I guess that is a variant I have always assumed was a standard part of the rules...

I don't think the problem is going to be that it isn't easy to define what abilities are relevant and how each particular challenge can be handled. I think that's relatively easy. I think the problem is going to be your ability to deal with continuous complex motion in a turn based system where discrete intervals of time are not defined in smaller than in 6 second units.

I remember the turn is broken down into smaller time increments in one of the books/magazines, something akin to 6 seconds (Full), 3 (Standard), 2.5 (Move), 0.5 (Swift) but it doesn't really help much.

 

[Celebrim]

I was all set to find the exact page/line number to prove you wrong because I KNOW that it IS defined by the rules, sadly it is defined on Page 33 of the DMG "Variant:Skills with different abilities", I guess that is a variant I have always assumed was a standard part of the rules...

Ahh... ok. I haven't paid much attention to variant rules, in part because I haven't paid much attention to even the RAW save to contrast it with my own variants. I can see the sense in adopting a more White Wolf approach to skill ranks and ability scores, but having played some White Wolf games in my day I think in practice this approach ends up leaving a lot to be desired. It's certainly not going to resolve a dispute about which is the correct approach.

In the case of fording the stream in a current, I still hold the correct interpretation is to treat this as being similar to being bull rushed by a creature, which handily covers the issue of size category.

I remember the turn is broken down into smaller time increments in one of the books/magazines, something akin to 6 seconds (Full), 3 (Standard), 2.5 (Move), 0.5 (Swift) but it doesn't really help much.

I think you'd find breaking the round up into 1 second or 1/2 second segments and tracking motion in 1 foot intervals instead of 5 foot intervals is going to be quite tedious to keep track of, but almost necessary if you want to have the motion of the platforms be large relevant to player motion. You get into all sorts of weird 'passing problems' where things move past each other without ever being close to one another and opportunities that the PC should have are lost because they pass by too briefly. D20's one somewhat kludge tool for dealing with things like that - the readied action - is wholly inadequate in this case.

However, if you keep the motion of the platforms down to 5' or 10' per round, then you can mostly hand wave the lack of continuous motion.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Ahh... ok. I haven't paid much attention to variant rules, in part because I haven't paid much attention to even the RAW save to contrast it with my own variants. I can see the sense in adopting a more White Wolf approach to skill ranks and ability scores, but having played some White Wolf games in my day I think in practice this approach ends up leaving a lot to be desired. It's certainly not going to resolve a dispute about which is the correct approach.

In the case of fording the stream in a current, I still hold the correct interpretation is to treat this as being similar to being bull rushed by a creature, which handily covers the issue of size category.

I agree with you on both points

I think you'd find breaking the round up into 1 second or 1/2 second segments and tracking motion in 1 foot intervals instead of 5 foot intervals is going to be quite tedious to keep track of, but almost necessary if you want to have the motion of the platforms be large relevant to player motion. You get into all sorts of weird 'passing problems' where things move past each other without ever being close to one another and opportunities that the PC should have are lost because they pass by too briefly. D20's one somewhat kludge tool for dealing with things like that - the readied action - is wholly inadequate in this case.

However, if you keep the motion of the platforms down to 5' or 10' per round, then you can mostly hand wave the lack of continuous motion.

again I agree with that, it does little to change the case for how to determine success or failure for the challenge, I think "mario" style platforms are simple, individual, Jump checks but are more complex movements handled differently?

 

[Celebrim]

again I agree with that, it does little to change the case for how to determine success or failure for the challenge, I think "mario" style platforms are simple, individual, Jump checks but are more complex movements handled differently?

Not really. They usually just involve more checks. It behooves anyone that wants to do complex fluid motion that they get enough ranks/bonus in their movement skills that they can't fail. They you can just pretty much do any move you can imagine.

The reflex checks for relatively slow moving platforms (less than 1' per second) are going to be relatively trivial. This is stepping off the escalator difficulty stuff. DC 1 maybe DC 3 if you are running. Since failure generally would only increase the just DC by like 1 per point you miss by, I'm not even sure that I'd do the reflex checks unless someone had dump stat dex/slow reflexes disadvantage. Maybe do DC 5/7 checks in the event of jumping from a moving platform to a platform moving towards it or for platforms moving at 10'/round something like that.

The more complex motion involves sloping/rotating platforms, which is just a balance check or climb check depending on the degree of slope.

I use slightly different balance DCs than the RAW because I always require balance checks when fighting/moving on a treacherous surface. Failure by 4 or less means you stumble and lose the action; failure by 5 or more means you fall prone. If you are wondering why balance is so highly prized in my game that fighters and paladins take it cross class, there you are.

For something like a partially rotated platform, I'd do something like DC 3-5 balance check per vigorous action (DC 8-10 if you double move/charge on it, and you have to pass two checks). Once it gets up to about 60 degrees, it switches off to a climb check to move on it - DC 15-20 depending on how vertical it is. Again, DC 20-25 if you double move up a wall and you have to pass two checks. Note that if the floor is rough enough to provide handholds then you are pretty much trading off easier climb DC for harder balance DC.

What sort of complex movement are you going for here? If you make the obstacle course too complicated, the PC's will just work around it.

 

[Omegaxicor]

What sort of complex movement are you going for here? If you make the obstacle course too complicated, the PC's will just work around it.

hahaha nothing that awkward (and they have no way around it ) just something more than predictable platforms where you can walk from one to the next, the 90 degree rotated platforms are a Jump check followed by a Strength check to hold on but the plan is just to Jump from platform to platform but characters have to plan their jumps before they start.