How do you 'nudge' your players away from tank mentality? (and high magic games)

[monboesen]

Bases on your assumptions for the game you need to

a) redesign the adventure heavily, and even moreso at middle to high levels.

b) power up the PC classes significantly. The easiest road have already been suggested. Buy Iron heroes and convert the PC's to those classes. That game has exactly the premise you described of classes being equal at all levels without magic gear. And at the same time the classes with no magical items are designed to be on equal footing with D&D classes with magic items.

 

[Herobizkit]

How do you 'nudge' your players away from tanks? It seems that every group I've ever run thinks they need a lug, tank character.

They think that way because it's true. Every "balanced" group (and here I use the term balanced to imply the WotC's belief in the Fighter/Mage/Cleric/Rogue requirement for successful adventuring) needs at least one front-line fighter to soak damage... it's what they do.

Our campaign group has the situation now and of course the Bbn outshines the other PC's 10:1 on damage and to-hit and the other players just sit there and send him into combats..or feign interest while he's blasting away... The Lower-Magic Campaign characters are Thuh' Barbarian, Swashbuckler-rogue, Swashbuckler-rogue, Ninja-Spellthief, Rogue-Warlock, Rogue

Well, of *course* the Bbn outshines the others in pure combat... the others are all mages and rogues!!!! One HUGE suggestion I would make is to locate an old copy of the AD&D2 Complete Ninja's Handbook. Obviously your players are looking for a stealth/intrigue campaign and one player wants to kill stuff; the Ninja's HB talks about having different classes integrate into a Ninja clan, something that relates to your situation. Even the Ninja clans have uses for "thugs".

IMO, Rogues and Wizards would tend to shine in city-based adventures. If this is what your game is about, have your Wizards and Rogues talk to people, do the sneakthief stuff, and peddle their magical wares... the Bbn will end up pouting in a corner and chewing on his club in frustration. But when it's time to open a keg of whoop-ass (ie they piss people off, the thieves are caught, prosecuted for using magic, and so on), the Bbn will be there to save their keisters.

 

[Herobizkit]

I'm of the philosophy that the D&D game characters were designed to be balanced in the absence of magical items no matter what the level.

WotC and people who design adventures based on WotC's assumptions believe that every party is expected to have x amount of GP's worth of magic at y level (it's in the DMG).

For example: a 14th level rogue without *anything* should be just as playable as a 14th level fighter without *anything magical" and should be able to fight any non-DR-magic monster toe to toe. If MI's were required, then they would be built into the character class (but in concession note the barbarian discussion).

Compare as we dare:
Rogue 14: HP 70 (on average; 4 HP/die +1 CON for argument's sake); BAB +10/+5; Fort +4, Ref +9, Wil +4; has Improved Uncanny Dodge, Evasion (and most likely Improved Evasion), and +7d6 sneak attack damage
Fighter 14: HP 126 (on average; 8 HP/die +1 CON for argument's sake but would most likely be more); BAB +14/+9/+4; Fort +9 Ref +4 Wil +4; will have a plethora of feats, most likely being Cleave/Great Cleave, Power Attack, and a host of others.

By this alone, I see that the Fighter's "job" is to wail and kill as many monsters as quickly as possible, while the Rogue's "job" is to avoid damage and get into an advantageous flanking position. They're a team, the Fighter and Rogue, but in a toe-to-toe battle, the Rogue is going to get creamed (lower AC, HP) and not be able to deal out the same amount of damage as often as the Warrior. If that's balanced, well...

{B}No scenario is dependent upon it's terrain to be an adventure[/B] (I learned this when we "INHERITED" the County of Urnst as our LIVING GREYHAWK region when I was on the Triad...the County btw, is ALL PLAINS HEXES.) Now, the new adventure path is set in a city, but all it takes there is a couple simple name changes. I moved AOW from the swamps of the region of Greyhawk City (Diamond Lake) to the DESERT and honestly it took virtually NO WORK. I turned water into oil in the "Sodden Hold" (renamed Sand Hold), which added excitement to the adventure when the PC's BLEW UP THE WAREHOUSE!!!

Living in a desert certainly changes a lot of things, like heatstroke, lack of available water/food, different monsters, different products and trade services, sandstorms, viciously cold nights, lots of open territory...

No scenarios are written with magical items or class powers in mind.

This is categorically false, as I mentionned above.

My best suggestion, based on the type of game you're looking to run, would be to give Iron Kingdoms (by Monte Cook) a read. It's designed to replace magic items with special abilities and talents, and every chatacter "class" in the book is either Warrior or Rogue-based. Heck, they even "threw in" a spellcasting class... as an NPC! ... just for show.

 

[Pbartender]

I'm of the philosophy that the D&D game characters were designed to be balanced in the absence of magical items no matter what the level. For example: a 14th level rogue without *anything* should be just as playable as a 14th level fighter without *anything magical" and should be able to fight any non-DR-magic monster toe to toe. If MI's were required, then they would be built into the character class (but in concession note the barbarian discussion).

Your philosophy is wrong, as far as D&D is concerned. Read page 51 of th DMG. It talks all about ensure that your characters get the right amount of treasure for their level, so that they can continue to meet the challenges presented to them. Then, go read page 135 of the DMG about character power levels.

With that sort of philosophy, you should really be playing Iron Heroes instead... Iron Heroes classes were designed with that intent from the ground up.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I don't see AOW as being magically dependent at all actually (see below).

I'm of the philosophy that the D&D game characters were designed to be balanced in the absence of magical items no matter what the level. For example: a 14th level rogue without *anything* should be just as playable as a 14th level fighter without *anything magical" and should be able to fight any non-DR-magic monster toe to toe. If MI's were required, then they would be built into the character class (but in concession note the barbarian discussion).


..

That may be your philosophy, but its wrong according to the people who designed the game. D&D assumes a certain number of magical widgets (bonus to AC, saves, etc) to stay alive.

 

[J-Buzz]

If I understand correctly, you make the spell casters multi-class? Do you make the Fighter/Barbarian multi-class? Maybe your answer is to make him/her multi-class as well, but to a non-fighter class. If the player has been receptive to your suggestions on feats (not taking cleave) maybe explain to the player what you want and they will find a multi-class combo to make him less of a tank.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Let me just toss out some agreement with ThirdWizard. Those other guys (except the straight R) seem like they could easily be way underpowered--especially in combat. What level range are you guys at, and what's the multiclass distribution look like?

See, the thing is that a well built rogue will generally do less well than a well built fighter in combat (at least, general damage output) on the other hand, that pile of skill points gives options, inside and out of combat. And sneak attack damage is sexy. Does your game have much time where those options and skills become more important? Is this only a combat issue?

Combat wise, I'd be all over the terrain and descriptions. I'd start with a bar-brawl, and have people up on tables, half drunk, and not paying attention to the rogues until they actually hit someone.

Anyway, my solution would be to have a talk with the barbarian's player. Since he DMs he should have some idea of your plight and will hopefully be sympathetic. You can either try and tone him down in the future (say, take a level of bard or something more skillzy), or ask him to bring in a new character who is a little more in-line with what you want. Ultimately, he made something good given your constraints, and even gave in on aspects to be helpful. I think that any acts to punish him for being too good (ie: Specialized opponents to fight him, specialized encounters to marginalize his abilities) are seneseless acts of . I've been on the recieveing end of that, and it KILLED the game for me.

Handle it straight. It'll work out better.

 

[billd91]

I don't see AOW as being magically dependent at all actually (see below).

I'm of the philosophy that the D&D game characters were designed to be balanced in the absence of magical items no matter what the level. For example: a 14th level rogue without *anything* should be just as playable as a 14th level fighter without *anything magical" and should be able to fight any non-DR-magic monster toe to toe. If MI's were required, then they would be built into the character class (but in concession note the barbarian discussion).

Next, In retooling adventures, there are three simple rules.
1. Any creature can get a visual makeover without changing it's stats. So, for example, if there is a bugbear or elf, in Hyboria it becomes a neanderthal, savage-tribesman or ape-thing, but I use the same stats. For monsters, this is even easier (just give them a new look and nerf any DR-magic or nerf the SR). How many DM's out there complain that as soon as they describe a monster, their players suddenly blurt out what it is..yea, I don't have that problem.

2. No scenario is dependent upon it's terrain to be an adventure (I learned this when we "INHERITED" the County of Urnst as our LIVING GREYHAWK region when I was on the Triad...the County btw, is ALL PLAINS HEXES.) Now, the new adventure path is set in a city, but all it takes there is a couple simple name changes. I moved AOW from the swamps of the region of Greyhawk City (Diamond Lake) to the DESERT and honestly it took virtually NO WORK. I turned water into oil in the "Sodden Hold" (renamed Sand Hold), which added excitement to the adventure when the PC's BLEW UP THE WAREHOUSE!!!

3. No scenarios are written with magical items or class powers in mind. If anything even resembles that hotion it makes a better sub-adventure than if the party already has said item. Ever had PC's run away from a monster? No? Then they're not challenged to have to figure out a differen't way.

But what happens when your philosophy encounters a different reality? I'll agree that #2 is possible, for the most part. Adventures certainly can be adapted and put in all sorts of different places. And as for #1, cosmetic changes can also be performed.

But I don't think I agree with the rest of it. I think that, in general, equipment isn't the biggest deal between characters of the same level though it as an impact in that certain classes have abilities that are affected by the equipment (both magical and non-) they carry. Choices in how they equip themselves can thus lead to relative imbalances.
I won't call it the strongest factor, but it is a factor nonetheless.

#3, I think, doesn't conform with observable reality. Adventures are definitely written with equipment in mind. Age of Worms, for example, would take a lot of rewriting to divest it of the assumptions it makes regarding levels of PC equipment. Granted, except for certain plot devices, there are no specific assumptions about what items and powers are brought to bear to successfully complete the campaign. But PC groups running that campaign who do not invest in certain magic item powers are going to be in a great deal of trouble. They simply won't be well equipped to deal with the danger that they learn is coming.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't see AOW as being magically dependent at all actually (see below).

I'm of the philosophy that the D&D game characters were designed to be balanced in the absence of magical items no matter what the level. [...]

Next, In retooling adventures, there are three simple rules.
1. Any creature can get a visual makeover without changing it's stats. [...]
2. No scenario is dependent upon it's terrain to be an adventure [...]
3. No scenarios are written with magical items or class powers in mind. [...]

.

Well, you're currently being out-voted on your first premise, so I'll leave it with this: there is NO way a typical group of Low-AC, Low magic PCs can fight a dragon even near they're CR without massive casualties. There is also no way to fight high DR or SR monsters (fiends, elementals, outsiders, constructs, intelligent undead, aberrations) without magic items.

Onto part 2
1.) I agree with this. I saw some of the most freakish monsters ever in a friends game: albino three-legged dogs with human baby-faces that cried and whined as they shot out jets of flame from thier mouths. Not your typical hellhounds, eh?
2.) Um, this is true some of the time. I doubt I could run "Glacier of the Frost Giant Jarl" in a tropical island though...
3.) SPECIFIC magic items in mind. You should never assume the PCs have a magic carpet, a holy avenger, or boots of striding when creating a scenario, but assuming the PCs have magically augmented AC, saves, and attacks (as well as DR beating weapons) is INTERGRAL to high level D&D.

To finalize my thought, I wouldn't worry about your barbarian problem, as soon as the PCs fight something like a mindflayer, vampire, red dragon, or vrock, the problem will clear itself up nicely...

 

[Emirikol]

Do Levels Make Up For Magic Items????

Thanks for the advice guys, I really appreciate it. I'll concede that it will become more difficult for the PC's as the levels of the scenarios advance..and they may have to think about their options of dealing with tougher monsters rather than "I charge," which makes even the "TANK" feel like a rotton egg if he does. I will definately keep all of your comments in mind. What I don't want to do is make the bbn player feel left out..and will keep nudging him towards 'fitting into the party.'

On the other argument out there I understand "the lack of magic items" bit for equal level but let me throw this out there:

At what point do levels make up for lack of more powerful magical items? For example: Could a 16th level party handle a 10th level scenario with "lower powered and fewer magical items..pretend just with some potions and scrolls to hit DRx monsters?"

Can a 20th level character with no magical items survive a 10th level scenario?

jh