How do you really determine monster ability scores?

[Draloric]

I'm trying to get my head around monster creation from scratch in 4th Edition. I've read the short section on pp. 184-5 of the 4th Edition DMG, but I'm missing something, clearly. Do monsters start with the standard ability array and then have their numbers adjusted (based on the advice given on p. 184, pt. 3, under "Monster Design Steps"), or do they simply simply get (generally) 13 + one-half the monster's level for one score of each of the ability score pairs, and the other to be determined by the DM as appropriate to his design intentions?

Draloric

 

[Grazzt]

I'm trying to get my head around monster creation from scratch in 4th Edition. I've read the short section on pp. 184-5 of the 4th Edition DMG, but I'm missing something, clearly. Do monsters start with the standard ability array and then have their numbers adjusted (based on the advice given on p. 184, pt. 3, under "Monster Design Steps"), or do they simply simply get (generally) 13 + one-half the monster's level for one score of each of the ability score pairs, and the other to be determined by the DM as appropriate to his design intentions?

Draloric

It says "on average, the highest in a pair is 13 + 1/2 level". You can pretty much set them to whatever you want it seems. Check the MM. WotC definitely didnt follow the "rules" if they truly wanted one score to be hard set to 13 + 1/2 level.

 

[Draloric]

You can pretty much set them to whatever you want it seems.

Yeah, that's certainly what I was left to assume, looking through the MM and trying to reverse engineer a few monsters. Still, I'd have rather seen that called out more expressly (cf. Creating NPCs, pp. 186-8, in the DMG for example), I guess, rather than to have to rely on inference for building balanced monster encounters of my own device. Thanks for the help, Scott.

Draloric

 

[keterys]

The important first step is realizing that you don't need to actually care about the ability scores... then make them something appropriate. It'll make some people happier if the math is even remotely close, but the fudge factor is rich and creamy in this edition.

 

[Draloric]

The important first step is realizing that you don't need to actually care about the ability scores... then make them something appropriate.

Can it really be that simple though? Ability scores will affect the monster's defences, and a particularly high or low score might throw a monster's defences off of its expected level, leading to a too easy or too difficult encounter. I know that eyeballing against the monsters in the MM is suggested for powers, but, for the underlying arithmetic of the game, I was expecting something other than snap DM judgement--especially since the first time a PC party might fight a DM-designed monster is probably not after extensive playtesting to settle the numbers. (At least at my table. )

Draloric

 

[Lizard]

Can it really be that simple though? Ability scores will affect the monster's defences, and a particularly high or low score might throw a monster's defences off of its expected level, leading to a too easy or too difficult encounter. I know that eyeballing against the monsters in the MM is suggested for powers, but for the underlying arithmetic of the game, I was expecting something other than snap DM judgement--especially since the first time a PC party might fight a DM-designed monster is probably not after extensive playtesting to settle the numbers.

Draloric

I get the impression that in 4e, all the NPC stats are 'decoupled'. You assign defenses and attributes as you see fit, they don't need to add up to anything.

Can someone with the books tell me if I'm correct?

 

[FunkBGR]

There's some definite fudge factor all over - take a look at the damage expression table. Almost nothing in the MM follows that precisely - you have Lurkers (which are suggested to do the high damage column) that do the low damage column.

Also, things seem to do weapon damage when wielding a weapon, rather than the damage expression. Often they have rider effects such as fire or multiple attacks.

For me, trying to get off my 3e horse, it's "tough" - but considering I have levels 1-3 mapped out already for my 4e campaign, with stats and everything for monsters?

Holy crap is it fast. I just need to tweak, and I don't have an eye for that yet.

 

[keterys]

I get the impression that in 4e, all the NPC stats are 'decoupled'. You assign defenses and attributes as you see fit, they don't need to add up to anything.

Can someone with the books tell me if I'm correct?

You should make them balanced and appropriate for the monster. Nobody cares whether it got there because it had 'stat X' and 'feat Y' under the hood or has 'Z monster circumstance ability'.

The real trick is realizing that there is no spoon at all.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Can it really be that simple though? Ability scores will affect the monster's defences, and a particularly high or low score might throw a monster's defences off of its expected level, leading to a too easy or too difficult encounter. I know that eyeballing against the monsters in the MM is suggested for powers, but, for the underlying arithmetic of the game, I was expecting something other than snap DM judgement--especially since the first time a PC party might fight a DM-designed monster is probably not after extensive playtesting to settle the numbers. (At least at my table. )

Draloric

The ability scores only effect the monsters defenses only to the extent at which you determine them to effect the monsters defenses.

A monster’s level determines its defenses. A given defense based on an average ability score is equal to 12 + the monster’s level. For every 2 points the ability score varies from the average, adjust the defense by +1 (if higher) or –1 (if lower).

In other words if you stuck to 13 + one-half the monster’s level for one of each pair of ability scores (STR and CON, DEX and INT, WIS and CHA) with the exception of one of those being 16 + one-half
the monster’s level, you should have defenses equal to:

12 + the monster’s level
12 + the monster’s level
13 + the monster's level (this one corresponds to the monsters main ability for attacks)

Thats what the average should be. Now that you know that, adjust the ability scores for whatever fluff you want, and keep in mind how that will effect your defenses relative to the average. And remember, the only ability scores that need to be in line are one of each pair. The others from each pair can be any ability score lower then the other. So you can make a monster with 25 DEX (9th level monster, DEX being its main stat for attacks) and a 2 INT. In the end its not going to effect any of the defenses. That way you can come up with some really wacky ability scores but still have a properly leveled monster.

 

[Grazzt]

You should make them balanced and appropriate for the monster. Nobody cares whether it got there because it had 'stat X' and 'feat Y' under the hood or has 'Z monster circumstance ability'.

The real trick is realizing that there is no spoon at all.

This.

And yep, there has to be some balance on the DM's part obviously. Ya wouldnt wanna design a Level 1 monster with AC 45, and all defenses set to 51, for example. You could I guess, but Im thinking the PCs would have a very hard time hitting it at all.

Monster design in 4e is definitely more like the old days (pre-3.x). Just concept your monster, figure out what you want it to do, and what you need to give it to make it happen. No more worrying about spending all its skill points, or including synergy bonuses, or "did I assign enough feats?"