How do you tell a fellow player he can't pick a particular feat for his PC?

[wedgeski]

Fake scenario or not, as a DM in this game I would absolutely NOT allow any player to dictate another player's choices, or otherwise stand by and watch him be bullied into doing what the rest of the party thinks is 'correct'. I've made a point of supporting any and all character builds and, yes, sue me, I adjust the game to compensate if need be. Smiling happy player with fun PC = good.

As an aside, this kind of peer-pressure min-maxing is an exceedingly unpleasant side to MMOG's like World of Warcraft as well, where players are literally *not permitted* by their guilds to build their characters in any way other than what is considered 'optimal' for the group. Fun is secondary to tackling the game as efficiently as possible. I would come down like a ton of bricks on my group if I ever detected that kind of attitude.

 

[tonse]

Smiling happy player with fun PC = good.

True, but his fun shouldn't come at the expense of the other players. For me RPGs are a team-effort. You can't just persue fun while expecting everybody else to bail you out at every corner.
To use the "team-angle" further: I can't think of too many football players nodding happily when the left tackle declares he will spend less time in the weight room to persue perfection in the art of flower-arranging. Everybody has to pull his weight after all.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

This can't be meant seriously! We now dictate each others's character choices? It's one thing if the DM bans broken feats, or if players ask each other to take feat X, skill Y, or class z. But to tell him: "This won't make you the Uber-Mage, so you may not take the feat" is ridiculous.

Usually, people complain for themselves if their character doesn't seem to pack a decent punch. You then give them some advice.

In this case, you might want to ask him why he chose those feats. Recommend some other feats he might want to try instead.

And I can't even start to address the issue of a gaming group that would throw my mage out of the team because he has animal affinity. "You must be at least level 5 powergamer to join this group" by donkey.

Fake scenario or not, as a DM in this game I would absolutely NOT allow any player to dictate another player's choices, or otherwise stand by and watch him be bullied into doing what the rest of the party thinks is 'correct'. I've made a point of supporting any and all character builds and, yes, sue me, I adjust the game to compensate if need be. Smiling happy player with fun PC = good.

Damn right.

As an aside, this kind of peer-pressure min-maxing is an exceedingly unpleasant side to MMOG's like World of Warcraft as well, where players are literally *not permitted* by their guilds to build their characters in any way other than what is considered 'optimal' for the group. Fun is secondary to tackling the game as efficiently as possible. I would come down like a ton of bricks on my group if I ever detected that kind of attitude.

I like how people keep handing me reasons why never to start playing that rubbish.

 

[wedgeski]

True, but his fun shouldn't come at the expense of the other players. For me RPGs are a team-effort. You can't just persue fun while expecting everybody else to bail you out at every corner.

I entirely agree that one person's fun shouldn't come at the *expense* of anyone else at the table... however, what everyone around the table should realise is that their idea of fun may not be the same as everyone else's. Everyone has to invest in everyone else's good time; that surely is the essence of 'RPGs are a team effort'.

If one person's good time is a slightly ham-fisted mage who likes talking to horses rather than optimising his Scorching Ray to the nth degree, then I would hope the table could jump on board with that. As a DM I certainly would.

 

[Ghendar]

Take a deep breath and repeat after me: It's only a game.

try to tell that to all the people who get their undies all in a bunch because "class X" is overpowered and ruining their game. <rolleyes>

 

[Ghendar]

Fake scenario or not, as a DM in this game I would absolutely NOT allow any player to dictate another player's choices, or otherwise stand by and watch him be bullied into doing what the rest of the party thinks is 'correct'. I've made a point of supporting any and all character builds and, yes, sue me, I adjust the game to compensate if need be. Smiling happy player with fun PC = good.

Player dictating to another player what he/she can or can't play, etc, is bad. Totally agree.

Your last part about adjusting the game to suit player's poor choices is something I would never do. As a DM, I go into a gaming session with a plan. My campaign is set ahead of time. If the player's decide they want to play three rogues, a druid, and a bard, then they'll have to figure out how to make that work within the structure of my campaign. Adjust? Hell, freakin' NO!

 

[wayne62682]

You want an honest answer from an admitted powergamer? This won't be pretty:

1) Ask why he took the feats.. he might have a good reason.
2) If he has a stupid reason then point out that the feats are rather useless. If he has a good reason, say that's a cool concept, and point out that the feats are rather useless.
3) Suggest (don't DEMAND!) some feats that he might want to "look into" to make his character a better Wizard. Don't say this like "Dude your character sucks, take Feat X" but more like "You may want to take a look at Feat X, it will let your Wizard do [insert cool thing here]"

Honestly, while I agree that it's not your place to tell another player what to pick, that player is being a selfish jerk by making a deliberately suboptimal character for the simple reason that it hurts EVERYONE. If I make a Wizard who totally sucks at casting spells, no matter how flavorful it may be, its going to affect the rest of the party and thus the other player's gaming experience. A player has the right to make the character they want, however they also have an obligation to the other players to not hinder the rest of the group with their character choice.*

* Don't think this only applies to suboptimal characters. This also applies to the selfish jerk who wants to play an Assassin in a predominantly Lawful Good party, or a Paladin in an evil group, or any other strange character that doesn't fit in with everyone else.

I apologize for the harshness of my comments, however in my now-former gaming group I ran into this all the time with two players; they would constantly pick things on a "flavor" basis and totally resent any optimizing suggestions I would offer them, but then complain when they can't do something and/or an optimized character is better than they are.

 

[wedgeski]

Your last part about adjusting the game to suit player's poor choices is something I would never do. As a DM, I go into a gaming session with a plan. My campaign is set ahead of time. If the player's decide they want to play three rogues, a druid, and a bard, then they'll have to figure out how to make that work within the structure of my campaign. Adjust? Hell, freakin' NO!

And if it works for you and makes a game that you and your players want to play... so much the better! DM variety FTW.

 

[wedgeski]

..suboptimal...

There's that little word I've been waiting for.

 

[shilsen]

Just one question, Driddle - is this a real situation or something you made up to see what folks on ENWorld say about it?