How does a dragon grapple?

[BartD]

I'm running RHoD and soon, the heroes will encounter their first serious dragon, Ozzy. I have run dragons before without trouble, but now the party has a rather good grappler (bear totem barbarian) who will probably try to grapple the dragon.

So I need to know how a dragon grapples.

From reading the Rules Compendium (the most recent grapple rules, right?) here's what I get:

• Ozzy gets 3 grapple checks per round (+14/+9/+4) because its BAB is +11 and its strength is 17.

• With each check it can try to beat the barb's grapple check in order to "deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike" ... is that just d3+3 nonlethal for being medium?

• Or it can attack the barbarian at -4 using a natural weapon. ... But can it only attack once per round? Or only use the same natural weapon multiple times in a round? And does it use its grapple check or normal attack modifiers for these attacks?

I know the dragon has several more options, but I think I understand those. So my questions are:
- How much damage can the dragon inflict using grapple checks?
- Precisely how does its attacks with natural weapons work?

RC fluff on grappling: "For monsters, grappling can mean trapping you in a toothy maw or holding you down to claw you to pieces."

 

[Creamsteak]

I "believe" that if you're doing 3 grapple checks (+14/+9/+4) then you're using your best attack, which would be your bite. If I remember right off-the-top-of-my-head, he's doing 2d6+3.

I also think that he can instead make his full round attack all on grapples, in which case he would get a bite, 2 claws, and potentially two wings. He can't use his bite and his tail on the same target in this case, I think.

However, Ozzy wasn't built for grappling or up-front melee I believe. He has a number of feats for strafing, so unless the grappler can get really good positioning, he should be somewhat avoidable. Ozzy can do a flyby bite with 10 ft. reach. He shouldn't have to go toe-to-toe with the fighter if he doesn't think he'll win that way.

 

[sukael]

• Ozzy gets 3 grapple checks per round (+14/+9/+4) because its BAB is +11 and its strength is 17.

Yep.

• With each check it can try to beat the barb's grapple check in order to "deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike" ... is that just d3+3 nonlethal for being medium?

Yes.

• Or it can attack the barbarian at -4 using a natural weapon. ... But can it only attack once per round? Or only use the same natural weapon multiple times in a round? And does it use its grapple check or normal attack modifiers for these attacks?

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

So, for each of those +14/+9/+4, it can: (a) perform a normal grapple attack, (b) attack with a natural weapon (at that base BAB instead of normal, but with otherwise normal modifiers, plus a -4), or (c) do something else.

I'd recommend a setup something like:
+14: attempt to pin opponent.
+9: whatever natural attack does the most damage.
+4: cast an appropriate spell (if the dragon has any without somatic components).

 

[Nifft]

+4: cast an appropriate spell (if the dragon has any without somatic components).

Wait... you get to cast a spell as an attack action if you're grappling? How the hell have I missed this all these years?

So a divine power'd Cleric could start a grapple, then next round cast four Stilled spells, plus one Quickened?

Woah, -- N

 

[sukael]

Wait... you get to cast a spell as an attack action if you're grappling? How the hell have I missed this all these years?

So a divine power'd Cleric could start a grapple, then next round cast four Stilled spells, plus one Quickened?

Woah, -- N

By the RAW, yep, as long as it's no more than a standard action.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling

"If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses." There's no clause to note that spells don't count under this...

 

[Zurai]

No. Note that it says "some of these actions take the place of an attack". That is what "these actions" refers to. Spellcasting is not one of those actions. If the spell takes a standard action to cast, it takes a standard action to cast, regardless of whether you're in a grapple or not.

 

[sukael]

No. Note that it says "some of these actions take the place of an attack". That is what "these actions" refers to. Spellcasting is not one of those actions. If the spell takes a standard action to cast, it takes a standard action to cast, regardless of whether you're in a grapple or not.

It may be "some", but nowhere is it explicitly said which, and the next sentence is phrased to (IMO) accomodate the entire list, not just the "some"...

 

[Zurai]

How can you attempt an action in the place of an attack if the action does not replace an attack?

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Emphasis mine. The sentence you're using specifically says you can only substitute actions for attacks. Spells are not substitutable for attacks. Nowhere in the text does it say grappling reduces the casting time of a spell (indeed, it specifically states that some actions still require their usual time). How, then, do you propose that casting while grappled automatically applies the Quicken Spell feat (actually, better than Quicken, since you can only Quicken one spell per round)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

It may be "some", but nowhere is it explicitly said which, and the next sentence is phrased to (IMO) accomodate the entire list, not just the "some"...

The next sentence refers back to the actions described in that sentence - that is, the 'some'.

I "believe" that if you're doing 3 grapple checks (+14/+9/+4) then you're using your best attack, which would be your bite. If I remember right off-the-top-of-my-head, he's doing 2d6+3.

If he's using the 'Damage Your Opponent' grapple check, he's dealing non-lethal damage as a creature of his size, unless he has Improved Grab, not bite damage. To deal bite damage, he needs to use the 'attack opponent with light weapon' option instead, and he can't use his bite multiple times for having a high BAB, since it's a natural weapon.

I also think that he can instead make his full round attack all on grapples, in which case he would get a bite, 2 claws, and potentially two wings.

No - you can't attack with more than one natural weapon while grappling, with the exception of a Rake.

-Hyp.

 

[Creamsteak]

With that in mind, I'd keep Ozzy out of melee range of the grappler unless you want to re-build him.