How does LA work?

[Snipehunt]

Not bad, but changing to medium from large really changes the PC from the basic Minotaur concept. I think it's a little overpowered as a LA+1, w/o the humanoid levels.

For comparison, the Bugbear PC (ECL +4):

Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.
— +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
—Medium size.
—A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
—Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
—Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
— +3 natural armor bonus.
— +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
—Favored Class: Rogue.
—Level adjustment +1.

Not bad as a rogue5/bugbear4. Somewhat overpowered as a rogue8/bugbear1.

My concern would be the race is overpowered for a barbarian if you let the PC start w/o the humanoid levels. I'd say, LA +2 at least, unless the humanoid levels are factored in. It's a lot more palatable as a Barbarian 6/Minotaur3. I'd prbably require at least 3 levels of minotaur (LA+4)

 

[Mistwell]

Los Angeles works just like every other city. You know, we've got roads and freeways and trains and a harbor and several airports to transport our people and goods, heck we even have a subway and above-ground rail system now. We have a big population base and lots of nice places to live and...


Oh wait, you meant Level Adjustment...

 

[Dash Dannigan]

You can always use the Dragonlance Minotaur race, played as a straight regular race no ecl.

 

[Snipehunt]

Los Angeles works just like every other city. . .

OT - Crazy dreamer! I think as I drive by the subway station in Hollywood, cursing that they didn't bother putting parking anywhere near the place, making it impossible for me, or anyone else farther than spitting distance, to use.

 

[Mojo Jojo]

So a hound archon that is a lvl 10 ____class is a ecl 21 character?
LA 5 + 6HD + 10 class lvls = ecl 21?

In the 3.5 MM a lvl 11 pal\ hound archon only has a CR of 16?

Why is that?

Would and advanced hound archon
LA 5 + 16HD = ecl 21 have the same CR?

 

[Mistwell]

OT - Crazy dreamer! I think as I drive by the subway station in Hollywood, cursing that they didn't bother putting parking anywhere near the place, making it impossible for me, or anyone else farther than spitting distance, to use.

Then you have trouble spitting I guess, since it is built right next to a MASSIVE parking structure.

 

[Ryan Koppenhaver]

So a hound archon that is a lvl 10 ____class is a ecl 21 character?
LA 5 + 6HD + 10 class lvls = ecl 21?

In the 3.5 MM a lvl 11 pal\ hound archon only has a CR of 16?


Why is that?

Would and advanced hound archon
LA 5 + 16HD = ecl 21 have the same CR?

Because ECL and CR are two different things.

Challenge Rating is a measure of how difficult a creature is for the player characters to defeat. Effective Character Level tells you how useful a creature is as a player character.

The major difference is that the PCs are expected to win most or all of the encounters they face, using up resources in the process. NPC foes are expected to lose an encounter with the PCs, wearing the party down somewhat as they go. Given the diferent circumstances, different abilities may be more or less useful.

A good example of this is a troll's regeneration ability. When (adequately equipped) PCs fight a troll, they typically spend a few rounds doing nonlethal damage to the troll until it's unconcious, then they burn or pour acid on it to really kill it. The troll's regeneration probably gives it an extra round or two before it gets knocked out, allowing it to do a few extra points of damage. Thus, having regeneration makes a troll worth a slightly higher CR than a similar monster without regeneration.

But if one of the PCs is a troll too, then a few minutes after the combat is over, all of his wounds are healed, without the need to use up other resources such as healing spells. For someone who's likely to get into several combats between periods of rest, that's a huge advantage. Thus, a troll PCs ECL is greater than the CR of an equivalent troll NPC.

 

[Tywyll]

So a hound archon that is a lvl 10 ____class is a ecl 21 character?
LA 5 + 6HD + 10 class lvls = ecl 21?

In the 3.5 MM a lvl 11 pal\ hound archon only has a CR of 16?

Why is that?

Would and advanced hound archon
LA 5 + 16HD = ecl 21 have the same CR?

BEcause CR and ECL have very little relation to each other.

It gets confusing because, supposedly, an NPC of X level is equal to an X CR creature. HOwever, the abilities a monster has which won't get used very much in your typical 4 round combat will see a much greater use in the hands of a PC who plays the character for a long time. AS such, they are valued at more then they would be in the hands of a monster.

That CR 16 hound archon, as a PC, would be a 22nd level character. Ironically enough though, if they somehow became a villian and fought against the other PCS, they would only be worth a CR of 16. Meanwhile, their straight fighter friend who is also 22nd level is worth a CR 22.

Screwy, ain't it?

This is why I hate CR and hate the ECL system as is. I've changed both for my games for exactly the above reason.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is why I hate CR and hate the ECL system as is. I've changed both for my games for exactly the above reason.

Out of curiosity, with what did you change them?

 

[Pax]

Because, Mojo, CR != ECL. They just aren't the same thing.

CR is "one fight only" balance. ECL is "whole bloody campaign" balance.