Pathfinder 1E How far can you push Illusions?

[Blammoh]

I had a conundrun the other day as I was DM-ing my fine group of powerhungry loot zealots, aka my player friends.

After the party psion (not canon PF I know, but we'll let that slide for now) did a concussion blast on a poor enemy wizard. She did about 25 points of damage, and I described it as seeing blood come from his nose and his eyes bulging as his face was constricted with pain. I felt properly cinematic about that.

However, the player next in initiative cast a [Major Illusio] and stated that he wanted to copy the effects of the psion power on that target, or at least all the effects he saw happen. He reasoned that he wouldn't actually copy the damage done to the target, but he could potentially make the target believe that he had had a second blast due to all the other things illusioned on him.

For the sake of argument, we assume the target fails any will saves needed.

I decreed this wouldn't have any effect even without a save, as the target wouldn;t get a headache from seeing even more blood come from his noes and he wouldn;t actually *see* his own eyes bulge more. Also, illusions coming into contact with a target being tend to not be there anymore. And this one would be on him at spell creation even.

He argued I was wrong as illusions were made to make someone believe something based on what he thinks he sees, and it should at least have a will save and make him keel over if the target believes he is going below 0 HP.

I am still fully unconvinced about illusions being able to do this in this particular case, and I am also afraid of starting up a precedent, as he will start copying fireballs and what not if this is ok.

I did promise him I would ask you lovely people in the off chance I am seeing this wrong and Illusion can actually do this.

So, what y'all think?

 

[delericho]

Hit points are a metagame construct, like levels, BAB, and the rest. The target creature has no idea how many hit points he has left (though he probably has some sense he's "close the death"), nor does he have any real conception of how many hit points a given attack does.

So, he knows that the first concussive blast rocked him back on his heels, but that he's still conscious and moving freely. He knows that the second (illusory) blast likewise rocked him back on his heels... but he's still conscious and moving freely.

Oh, and the spell does no damage.

 

[Stormonu]

I agree with Delericho, this sounds like metagaming for effect.

if the psion's attack had any visible, auditory or touch sensations, the major illusion should be able to duplicate the "look" of the attack, but unless the caster had experienced a similar mind attack in the past, I doubt he'd be able to replicate the "feel" of the blast in the target - kind of like trying to copy the essence of a dragon if you've never encountered/seen one yourself.

 

[Larrin]

What if instead of a spell, the illusionist had cause the foe to believe it had a gaping chest would from an axe. Would the foe's mind be able to cause that level of damage to himself just by believing it had happened?

Answer: Only if the spell states it can cause damage.

I would look at:

1) check the spell description. If it can deal damage, it will quantify it. If it doesn't say it can deal damage, then it is unlikely to be able to.

2) Check the sub-school:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion also provides a quick list of types of Illusions: figments, glamors, patterns, phantasms, shadows.

of these types figments (which major image is) and glamers specifically say they don't have real effects

Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

patterns and phatasm don't directly state they can or can't, but some spells (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantasmal-killer) certainly do, so it is up to the spell description in these cases.

shadows flat out say they can deal real damage.

 

[MarkB]

There are already a range of spells that can inflict real effects if the target fails to disbelieve them - Shadow Evocation and its similarly-named brethren. Let the player use those if he wants to make pretend-fireballs.

 

[Greenfield]

The use and abuse of Illusions has a long and storied history in D&D, and it will continue in Pathfinder, I'm sure.

Here's the bottom line on handling them: Read the spells. Know what they can and can't do.

If a spell says it can do real damage, it does real damage. It is not dependent on the caster having ever felt that type of damage, nor is it psychsomatic in nature: The recipient of the spell doesn't even have to know what kind or amount of damage a particular flash of light should do. The damage is real because that's what that spell does.

If the spell refers to doing real damage, but doesn't mention other effects then you need to be aware of what is and isn't damage. Disintegrate can do real damage. It can also physically destroy things, regardless of hit points or hardness. The dice of damage are damage. The actual reduction to dust isn't. The sudden death from spells like Symbol of Death aren't damage. Neither are things like Symbol of Sleep or Slay Living.

Also watch what the user is trying to do. The original spells, way back in D&D (before even Basic or AD&D 1st Ed) said illusions could me made of any "object, creature or force." If you see language like that, take it literally: Object *OR* creature *OR* force, not objects, creatures and forces. One object, or one creature or one force. Archer? Cool. Arrow? Great. Archer shooting arrow? Nope, that's object *AND* creature. Dragon? No problem. Dragon breathing fire? Sorry, that's creature AND force. You can't have both.

People used to argue that illusions can't kill because you can't imagine yourself dead. Sorry, not true. As written, if the damage from an illusion is listed as real, it's real damage and has nothing to do with yours or the target's imagination.

Disbelief these days takes the form of a Will save. Reason to disbelieve is hard to pin down, but it's not the final word on the topic. That's just your raffle ticket. It buys you roll of the dice, nothing more.

Some people try to play that they go through life throwing sand at everything in the belief that contact dispels illusions. It doesn't. At least not automatically and universally. As written, some illusions are dismissed by disbelieving contact. Some specify that they are dispelled unless the caster can make the illusion react appropriately.

Question: What's the appropriate reaction for an illusion of a stone wall when someone touches it or throws sand at it?
Answer: To stand there and do nothing, just like a real stone wall would.

Question: What is the appropriate reaction for an illusion of a cloud of fog, or a Darkness effect, when someone touches or throws sand at it?
Answer: To stand there and do nothing, just like a real cloud of fog or field of Darkness would.

Question: Can an Illusion of a Bridge carry believing people across a chasm?
Answer: Unless the spell contains some percentage of "real" component, the answer is no.

And the one thing we can all be certain of is that someone will disagree with every single point I've made.

 

[Dannorn]

Unless they're fighting in a hall of mirrors the target won't be aware that his eyes are bulging or his nose is bleeding or really any other illusion you cast on his face, he can't see it and therefore can't be tricked into thinking what the player did should have hurt.

At best I'd have the target take non-lethal damage if he rolled a 1 on the save

 

[Vegepygmy]

However, the player next in initiative cast a [Major Illusio] and stated that he wanted to copy the effects of the psion power on that target, or at least all the effects he saw happen. He reasoned that he wouldn't actually copy the damage done to the target, but he could potentially make the target believe that he had had a second blast due to all the other things illusioned on him.

I assume you mean major image, which creates the visual, auditory, olfactory, and/or thermal illusion of an object, creature, or force.

So the illusionist could create the illusion of a "force" that looks, sounds, and smells like a concussion blast, but it wouldn't feel like a concussion blast because major image doesn't create tactile illusions. Such an illusion might fool an outside observer, who might not be able to perceive such qualities of a concussion blast anyway, but it certainly wouldn't fool the "target" of the illusion, because he wouldn't feel any of the pain he'd expect from a real concussion blast.

 

[Dannorn]

Yeah you could convince someone they've been hit by a fireball or cold spell because you can create the illusion of heat or cold, but you still can't do actual damage because no real harm is being done so at best you could get non lethal damage (if they believe they've been hurt they could go into shock and pass out) but it'd be gone as soon as they realized the illusion for what it was

 

[Thotas]

Always, always hated what I used to call "belief damage". People would insist to me that it made perfect sense that someone could take the equivalent damage from a real or illusory sword. The belief itself damages your body, I was told. So, alright then, if I get hit by a real sword don't I believe that, so it should do the damage twice, once for the actual hit and again for believing it? That's stupid, isn't it? What about an illusory cleric with a whole bunch of illusory healing scrolls (for when it becomes unbelievable that they had that many prepared, of course) -- lots of free healing, right? Sure, I know by now it's our mage's standard ploy, but I can always volunteer to fail my saving throw. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket ...

As others have said, non-lethal damage from illusions at best, and I'd be pretty skeptical about that most of the time.